Me: That reminds me of a question - Sawyer (er, I mean James Ford) asked "Who the heck is Hugo and why does he have XXX million dollars?" on the raft... He now calls Hurley - Hugo - Does he remember that Hurley has a lot of money, and what will/is he doing about it???

Des&Pen: that is, if they're off the Island?

Me: They aren't off the island yet - that won't be for awhile - I'm pretty sure there is going to be some conflict with Naomi's people and it won't be until Penny sends her own group that anyone makes it off the island...

Snootch: I still think that him calling him by the Hugo name is just a little piece of the bet, and tricky stuff that Hurley pulled on Sawyer that's hanging around. Hurley hasn't done anything to him that has bothered him per'se, and so he hasn't reverted back to the nickname calling at least with him.

Me: I agree, but do you think he has put 2 and 2 together? He read the notes in the bottle and he commented on Hugo's note - know he knows that Hurley is "Hugo" - has he made the connection?

Snootch: Oh I see. DOH!
So you are thinking that maybe Sawyer is pulling the grand daddy of long cons? Seems possible. He's said it before, and in his actions shown that he's just as apt to try to please people as he is to con them.

LockesLadyness:  you are one who thinks that sawyer can change and that he does have real feelings... as a clinician, i see him as a personality disorder whose basic nature doesn't change, but his methods of obtaining what he wants will... but he still wants all the pieces of the pie....

Des&Pen: I thought Sawyer actually liked him

Me: But, that could be part of him knowing that Hurley has money - and he know's where there is some more wealth buried... He could leave the island with his pockets lined...

Snootch: Oh...I'm sure it's still possible that he does. Hurley has gone above and beyond for everyone, but for someone to try to help Sawyer become part of a group (sort of like a family) he would have some respect for him in that way.

Des&Pen:  And i thought they were friends now

Snootch: I still think that's another bit of a sticking point for me in regards to them being missing. I guess now we know that the crash was made to look like it was fatal for all involved, but my question is this.
Why didn't Hurley's mom use some of his massive wealth to look for him? Or was it that Dharma/Hanso or whomever covered it up so fast that all the families were meant to believe they all died?

LockesLadyness: if what naomi said is true, everyone was told that there were no survivors and the bodies were all still inside the plane.... they had no reason to look because they knew where they were...

Me: I think it's the latter - If I was told that my "whatever" had died in a plane crash, and there were pictures and such, I don't think I would even question it...

Snootch: I agree. So that still brings back to the idea of who pulled the cover up? And also did they actually know that at least some of the people on there were coming? I know they have shown Des not pushing the button took down the plane, but the one thing that gets me is this. When Des "DIDN'T" push the button, and supposidly brought down 815. Why in his FB's of that time didn't we see or hear the massive color changes or the sound blast. It would have most assuradly have made a massive noise even if it wasn't at the same level. Dispersing the kind of EM pulse that it would take to rip apart a plane would have to have made a massive noise.
I guess..now that I think of it. Something did shake the island. We noticed that when the others come running out of their little homes on the island.

Me: I think the cover-up had to be Ben's group, because they were the only ones that were communicating with the island at the time. I don't think that Naomi's group new about 815 - I think they knew about Desmond because he was working with DHARMA people (Kelvin) and that information got back to them somehow...

Snootch: Hmm...but how would that have been possible? We know that at least from first looks of the situation Ben wants nothing to do witht he people that are going to be coming from the boat that Naomi is from. So looking at that alone makes me think that it's got to be some branch of Dharma/Hanso that is coming in to clean house. They now might now (since Locke's Flame station message, and making it go boom) know that there is something very wrong going on on the island, and from Ben's point of view that would be a threat to himself and his role as leader.

Me: I thought what I was implying was that it was Ben's group that covered up 815 and that the DHARMA/Hanso people are the ones that are coming - they knew about Desmond but not the 815 group...

Des&Pen: If Locke doesn't want anyone to know about the Island, then why did he blow up the Flame. He knew they would come.

Snootch: I don't think Locke cares if people come to save them overall. He just wants to get whatever it is he feels he is supposed to get out of this place first, and i'm sure his overall goal isn't to keep them from rescue, but to keep himself on the island. And until he knows what he's dealing with he's going to do what he needs to to see that they aren't taken from the island.
Funny though. You'd think that it wouldn't matter to the people doing the rescuing. if someone wanted to stay on a lone island in the ocean I don't know if they would stop you. Unless it was a big deal for family members ect.

LockesLadyness: i don't think they will be able to catch locke to put him on the boat...

Me: I don't think that Locke knew at the time - that it would bring someone else that would possibly hurt his island.... Locke doesn't think things through before taking action...

Des&Pen: I think Jacob told him to try to stop Jack. And he messed that up - unless he was supposed to just get rid of Naomi. Like she wasn't supposed to sneak on the Island and the Island didn't want her there.

Me: You're right - Jacob/Walt told him to stop Naomi from contacting her people becasue that would hurt the island... That's my take on it too...

LockesLadyness: it's not that he doesn't want anyone to know about the island, he just doesn't see a need to leave it... he sees this as a safe place... a place where you can become the best you can be... he sees no need to leave... blowing up the flame was done to protect the island... or so he thought...

Snootch: Brax. OK... we're on the same page with the Dharma/Hanso part. But I don't get how they would know about Desmond. He was working in the hatch yes, but from all the things that seem to be coming up now. It would seem that the only people that D&H would know about are maybe Ben, a few other original Dharma workers, and then of course any new recruits they sent. Des came after that, and I suppose it's possible that ben could have relayed the info that Desmond was working for them now, but I don't know about that. It seems that the contact they had with the outside was only for the purpose of getting the things they needed. I guess it's possible though.
The question I ask now is. If Ben's group covered up the crash. Who is he/they (others) working for? Is it Widmore, Hanso, someone else we don't know yet? It would have to be a huge money making company/person to be able to have the resources to cover up a airline crash, and also just to keep things running.

Me: Do you think that Kelvin was DHARMA or hostile? And, that he may have had some way of communicating that he didn't tell Desmond about - but that may be way out there... I'm just trying to figure out how DHARMA (Naomi) knew that Desmond was on the island...

Snootch: Well I think he was sort of Dharma. From the time that the PURGE would have happened I'd have trouble thinking that Kelvin was there that loing until Des showed up. BUT...as Hostile he could have been releaved of his duty there off and on before Desmond got to the island. So indeed it would almost seem more likely that he was part of the hostiles.

Des&Pen: Maybe there is a plant or a spy in the Hostile group.
And Kelvin hated it there.

LockesLadyness: kelvin was dharma... my question is, how long ago did ben purge the island???

Me: Locke has been trying to stop efforts at rescue from the beginning - he bopped Sayid on the head to stop an attempt - He saw Walt set the raft on fire and didn't stop him - so it has been going on since season 1...

Snootch: I do believe that Kelvin did want off the island, and he was working on the boat to get himself off the island. But he also believed in the hatch needing someone to push the button "To Svae the World" enough that he tricked Des so that he would st5ill remain in the hatch to push the button

Des&Pen: And he didn't seem to report to anyone ..hmm

Me: Here's what I think: Kelvin was DHARMA and his partner died - the replacement showed up (Henry Gale) via balloon and the hostiles got to him first - killed him and buried him on the spot. Kelvin sat around all "one man show" for awhile until Desmond appeared on the island and he grabbed him. I don't think he was a hostile, because they would have put him with someone else, and he wouldn't have needed Desmond's boat to get off the island. Still doesn't answer how DHARMA knew about Desmond, because if he (Kelvin) could communcate with DHARMA, he would have said "hey, where is my relief?" and "hey, my partner died..."

Snootch: Well yes he would have. We know that Ben doesn't let anyone "working" for them leave the island. Juliet is a prime example. So Kelvin being a hostile might not be the case, and so an original Dharma worker would be a better fit.
As for Dharma knowing about Desmond. How do we know that they know about him? Are you going on the idea of the pic that naomi had? then it would seem that way, but I'm betting more on the fact that as of right now. All we know about Des crashing on the island is that it was a bad storm ect... ect... Well...we know after he tried leaving that navigation tools don't work near the island. So in that regard we culd have a connection to Mr. Widmore. It' was his race, and so why not get Desmond out of the picture by making him believe the route he needs to take on his race would put him in reach of the island, and let the natural power of the island do the rest. No more worries about Des and Penny ever being together.

Me: Good point - send him in reach of the island... I like that... And the pic could be Widmore's way of finding out if his plan worked or not...

Snootch: Exactly!

Des&Pen: Ben didn't know about Desmond's boat, but they find out about people all the time.

Me: Well, they found out about the 815'ers because they saw a 777 crash... A boat can sort of sneak up on the island... hehehe

Des&Pen: But Kelvin, if he communicates w/them at all, didn't tell them and Jacob or the Island didn't know either.

Snootch: Right, and that's what makes me believe that Jacob, the island or what have you. Only can sense people with whatever inate trait that Locke/Ben/Walt ect... have.
Des' power seems to be different.

Des&Pen: Ben didn't seem very concerned about Desmond, and neither did Jacob ?

LockesLadyness: we know the swan station was monitored... that it is a part of dharma. kelvin said he was a part of dharma. ben was a part of dharma until the purge. he still monitored the swan station. they knew desmond was there. perhaps they just figured he was someone else sent to be a replacement???

Des&Pen: okay, so we have

1) Ben either didn't know about Desmond, or doesn't care

2) The boat came to Desmond mysteriously

3) Libby never had a chance to say, hey, Desmond!

Snootch: The boat was indeed given to him by Libby. But it's always something that has been speculated that Libby's husband (That dies in the deck accident with Hurley) is related to Widmore. Or wasn't it even mentioned that she was related???Maybe not, but it would seem very strange that lo and behold. A downtrodden man looking for a sailboat to race runs into a woman willing to "Give" it to him? Don't know if Des is blind to cons, but it would prove the old addage that "love is blind" because that wouldn't seem like something I wouldn't question.

Des&Pen: I thought the same thing!

Des&Pen: 4) Ben needed info on Desmond and their communication went out after he asked for it, so Naomi was bringing it to him

Des&Pen: 5) So it look like the Hostiles work for Widmore

Me: I think that DHARMA works for Widmore not the hostiles. If the hostiles worked for Widmore, then they wouldn't be afraid of Naomi's boat... I'm pretty sure that the pieces lay out that way...

Des&Pen: They don't want to work for him, or that spy thing again?

Me: I don't think it is a matter of not wanting to work for him, they "the hostiles" have been battleing DHARMA since day 1 - even when Ben was a child, they (DHARMA) knew about the hostiles and built it into their systems to alert them if the hostiles took over (the enter 77)...

Des&Pen: But how did they get Penny's picture? A spy for Widmore followed them the day they got their picture taken, and gave him a copy??

Snootch: I'd have to say that the spy was indeed the lady taking the photo. Wasn't she the same lady from the jewelry store?

Des&Pen: she took a photo?

LockesLadyness: penny kept a copy in her apt??? dad found it and made another copy???

Des&Pen: Naomi was bringing that info to Makhail!

Snootch: Hmmm...I don't think so. Mikhail was only out there because he had survived the "fence" and as for naomi..she is part of what Ben is afraid of. So I don't think that would work.

Des&Pen: The Monastery!

Me: Plus, the hostiles killed a bunch of DHARMA folks in the "purge" - I don't think that they will be all that happy to see them...

Des&Pen: Then there's a spy in the Hostile group

Me: Why do you say that?

Des&Pen: Okay...Mikhail and Klu had some kind of bond. None of the others cared very much for each other. How do we really know Ben doesn't want the boat to come? He's never failed at any of his cons, ever.

Me: He seemed genuinly afraid of the boat - and, I think that in this instance - Locke and Ben are on the same page...

Jack and Kate are not rescued off the island at the beginning of Season 4; they will be on the island for a number of years still. 

The boat that Jack contacted belongs to DHARMA/Widmore's branch.  Widmore sent Desmond on a round-the-world sailing race and made sure that his path would cross close enough to the island to get sucked into its grasp.  He may have orchestrated the whole Libby give Desmond a boat thing in order for Desmond to be able to get out of Penny's life

Kelvin worked in the Swan station for DHARMA.  He was immune from the purge because he was in a quarantined hatch.  Later, his replacement or possibly his dead partner's replacement - Henry Gale (in a balloon) crashed or landed on the island and either he died in the crash or the hostiles killed him when he landed and buried him on the spot.

The Flame station contacted DHARMA before it blew up when Locke did the "Enter 77" thing that reported that "Hostiles" had taken over the Flame station.  In Locke's haste to sabotage all things in his way, he called DHARMA to the island.  Now, before the ship left (armed to take back the island), Widmore thought "hey, if Desmond has really made it to the island and hasn't been lost at sea, maybe I should have someone check on that..." He gave a copy of the picture that Penny (his daughter) keeps to Naomi (and maybe others), with instructions to report back to him.  But, because the Swan station blew up, the beacon that allows them to locate the island is not working, so they can't find it. Locke gets instructions from the island to keep the threat away and he kills Naomi.  Jack contacts the ship and the ship now has a signal that they can follow to get onto the island. 

When the DHARMA ship gets to the island, and they find out that 1) all their people are dead - including Naomi, they will be enraged and will attempt to take back the island by force.  and 2) they will not take time to believe the story that the 815'ers are really not part of the hostiles because they all believe that the 815 'ers are all dead - because the hostile's network planted the story that it crashed with no survivors.  The 815 survivors will be forced to defend themselves against another group of invaders, and there may even be some exchange of support between them and Ben's group in order to survive.

The "rescue" that get's Jack, Kate, Claire, Aaron, and whomever else off the island, will be as a result of Charlie telling Penny that Desmond is alive.  Locke, and some others (like Danielle and Alex) will choose to stay on the island.  The rescue will not be the result of Jack contacting Naomi's ship.  Now that Penny knows that Desmond and some plane crash survivors are alive on an island, she will mount a rescue effort - but will have some work to do before it arrives.  The effort to get a rescue to the island will take at least a couple of months to get there and that is at least a couple of seasons away - definately not in Season 4.

-Brax