The Symbol -->Taoism --> Quantum Theory as a direction Posted: Sep30@ 02:37PM by:kateg468(159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
This is my first time on a Lost message board -- I came here wondering if anyone else was thinking the same things I was about the show, so I apologize if this post is repetitive. I did a quick topic search and didn't see anything about this. At this point I have no idea how all the loose ends are tied up, but I think there's good evidence to at the very least make a very general assumption about the show's plot. Everyone has their pet theories and have since the beginning, but I think the writers have narrowed it down for us somewhat at least in terms of direction. Here is why: 1. The symbol. It is called the I Ching (after the book) or Pa Qua and is used in Buddhism, Taoism, and Feng Shui (bagua), and on the Korean flag. It is an octagon containing 8 trigrams in it, which each stand for various things in various categories. Each can stand simultaneously for an element, a body part, a direction, etc. The trigrams in the LOST I-Ching are upside down when compared to the standard I-Ching -- they start with South at the top and then go clockwise through SW,W,NW,N,NE,E,SE. Like a compass, usually N is at the top. 2. According to a Kung Fu site I found, the I Ching's 24 sections (the three lines of each side multiplied by the eight sides) represent the 24 hours of the day, and the sequence of broken and solid lines on each side are used to indicate the times during the day when our 108 critical points of the body are safe from injuries which otherwise could cause us serious harm. 3. Across the front of the symbol is the word Dharma (backwards R, who knows?) and in the center there appears to be a bird of some kind. I've seen people post a lot about Dharma, but haven't seen anyone mention that the word "Dharma" is also the name of an actual person -- the monk Ta Mo was also known as Bodhidharma or plain Dharma, and he was the founder of Zen Buddhism (which melds Buddhism with Taoism) at the Shaolin Temple around 527 AD. He is the first historical figure associated with Tai Chi, which is based on 108 postures and whose aim is physical strengthening. The 108 postures are partly based on the 8 basic I Ching trigrams, plus the five elements of Taoist alchemy. 4. A big symbol of Taoist alchemy (science/medicine) is the white crane, so I think that's what is probably in the center of the symbol. Google image search a crane and you'll see they have super long necks like swans. The goal of Taoist/Chinese alchemy was twofold: 1. immortality (the golden elixir), and they tried to figure out a way to reverse the aging process and heal the body from disease through both chemical experimentation and theoretical internal alchemy. They sought to fuse the physical and spiritual realms, or transcend them into a higher state of being. 2. Cosmology -- Yin Yang -- link included below... The crane is also a symbol of rejuvenation, reincarnation, and rebirth. (the Phoenix bird symbolizes the exact same thing, and is the symbol on Desmond's shirt in the stadium) 5. If you assume that the hatch area is a research facility of some sort (labcoats, computer equipment, syringes), and that the survivors are all test subjects of some kind, then the next step is to look into possible modern day connections for the reason why they chose to use that symbol. There is a field of inquiry called quantum alchemy and the much larger one of quantum physics, which have many surprising correlations with the ancient I-Ching. If you Google "quantum" and "I Ching" you'll see what I mean. Quantum physics obviously involves a really big area of study, including string theory (unification/M theory), chaos theory, and relativity. Perhaps even nanotechnology. Basically, if you look at all of these individual disciplines, there are possible explanations there for a lot (not all!) of what is going on in the plot -- quantum physics covers multiple parallel universes, synchronicity, electromagnetism, other additional dimensions, wave theory, time travel (wormholes), membranes, Schrodinger's cat, etc. Quantum psychology also could figure into the plot in a huge way. And if you add in Nan technology (microscopic ingestible/injectable nanobots, brain/thought amplification, swarms, etc.) to the mix then you can definitely explain everything . (study basic quantum stuff and read Michael Crichton's Prey and it's all there) 6. In addition to the independent I-Ching connection, there are also some thing that the writers have said in interviews that support this general plot direction. First, they have said that the plot is based on "pseudoscience". Most, if not all, of the above categories fit into this niche. Second, they (Damon Lindeloff?) have said that Robert Anton Wilson's "Illuminatus" books have been an influence, as well as "The Third Policemen". RAW has written extensively about both transcending/merging the physical and spiritual world and quantum physics/psychology and the ideas they contain. So, basically, what all of this means to me is that whatever is going on, it likely has to do with a science experiment (gone really wrong) where the goal was essentially the same (or similar in some important way) as the goals of the ancient alchemists -- something like to transcending the physical 3 dimensional world as we know it (time travel, higher plane existence) , or to achieve longevity/immortality/self-rejuvenation through mind over matter or alternate "incarnations" in other realities/parallel universes, or something of that kind. They could be physicists (magnet work would suggest this) or chemists/medical researchers (injections/sickness would suggest this) or something totally different. Conclusion: From these clues contained both in the actual show and in writer comments, at bare minimum we can rule out theories involving things like nuclear testing, biological weapons, genetic mirrors (did anyone ever find out if that is even an actual for-real theory?), etc. I have no idea yet exactly how or how much the ideas of Taoism and quantum physics/alchemy/psychology actually solidify in the actual show, but I think that this general direction is being indicated. Who knows, there could definitely be more than one grand explanation for everything going on... Of interest: -- Desmond -- man of many worlds (could this mean parallel worlds?) -- He says "See you in another life" to Jack which indicates he knows what he's doing -- He said he was almost a doctor -- pre-med is lots of chemistry, like o-chem -- Many of the characters seem to have healed from serious injuries and spent time in hospitals -- Buddhists believed there was a dimensions too, mainly one between life and death -- maybe the others are in an additional dimension and that's why their whispers can be heard -- the "gun" Desmond used to inject himself is called a jet injector -- they're used to give insulin injections, various medicines, and vaccines. My bet would be on a vaccine of some kind. -- I looked into pharmacological coding procedures, and the number on the vial label is not in the NDC format required by the US government (adopted in 1973) for all FDA approved drugs (so whatever it is, it's either research, from another country, or pre-1973) -- The jars and boxes in the storeroom had the symbol, and in a close up shot the applesauce, candy bar tin and cookie tin had " ?? 9FFTR731" printed on the labels just above the symbol. Any ideas? -- other Taoism tie-ins -- Big Dipper, caverns/cave, mountain (dome) (all appear in the plot somewhere) -- Tao Te Ching -- magnets are used for research purposes in quantum theory sometimes -- the opposition between Jack and Locke has obvious tie-ins with the natural versus supernatural, physical versus metaphysical thing -- maybe a point is that they will end up both being correct? Things I'm wondering -- any ideas? -- The writers also said that while the origin of the numbers is a big secret, the only one they always had from the beginning was 23. -- Things I still want to look into are magic cubes, the extended pa qua (the I-Ching is actually just the center ring of a huge extended table), physics formulas (numbers) -- could the numbers be found anywhere in this stuff? Could they have to do with the numbered verses of the Tao Te Ching, or if you find all of the corresponding numbered hexagrams could they all put together mean something? -- If the experiment has gone wrong, how and why and when? Is Desmond a survivor too? It seemed like Desmond was recruiting test subjects (or at least Jack) but then he didn't know what was going on in the last episode, like he'd been in the hatch for a very long time. I'm wondering if there may be two Desmonds in two parallel universes -- maybe whatever he gave Jack in the bottle was a catalyst for change to an alternate reality --eg. He gives him a second scenario re: Sarah -- what if he had fixed her? In M-theory, every action has infinite consequences and instead of only one occurring, they all occur simultaneously, only in separate parallel realities. Maybe Desmond knew Jack could change over to the one in which Sarah was "fixed"? Or the plane -- does it still have an arrival time on the Oceanic website? Like for the an alternate reality where the plane did land, only a little late, and where the survivors carried on with their normal lives? I see to remember several of them ingesting drinks before the crash. -- Why is the shark hanging out around the island when it could swim off anywhere it wants? It was not a robot, but could it have something implanted in it so it is controlled? Why doesn't Desmond bring in higher tech stuff? -- Could the hatch be a formerly abandoned nuclear/military bunker from the 60's that was then co-opted as a research facility later on, like in the 70's? And if there is only one Desmond, and he could leave (to meet Jack in ?97), why doesn't he bring back some better, modern stereo/electronic/computer equipment for himself? -- You would think that the first thing the survivors would do after finding food , shelter and water would be to make for darn sure that they're on an island before sitting there for days. Why haven't they tried to go all the way around it to make sure? And have they looked for the radio tower Danielle was talking about, or did I miss something? --Could Hurley be "him", and have been in the mental hospital because he was having "delusions" about time travel or something like that? (think 12 Monkeys) Maybe he gave the joke to Desmond as a passcode for when they met again in another time/dimension or something. Okay, that's about it -- a lot for a newbie I know, so sorry for being so long-winded. I hope you guys will be nice even if you think my ideas suck, which is totally possibleIMG alt=src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0> I'm blown away by how intelligent many of the comments I've read have been. I found virtually all of this out by researching through Google, so anyone can find this stuff and investigate. There are way, way too many sites on all of these subjects to provide links to everything. Here's the link to Taoist cosmology, from above à www.universal-tao.com/tao/what_is_taoism.html I am aware that there are other threads where a lot of the stuff I'm wondering about has already been being discussed for a while -- links to them would be appreciated. Also, please, anyone who has ideas or observations or answers or knows more than I do about this stuff, help out! Thx
(Message edited by abraxas1954 On
06/26/2008 18:01:44)
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Great post! Just wanted to add at little more information regarding the ba gua and i ching:
There is a lot of research on the connection between the I ching (ba gua) and DNA . . . there are 64 gua/kua and 64 possible amino acid combinations of ATCG . . . a trigram has 6 bars. . . like the 6 numbers 4,8,15,16,23,42 . . . what if the code numbers are in part references to an amino acid sequence (of the disease/vaccine?).
In addition, other posts mentioned that the 6 numbers add up to 108 . . . I like the connection you made between the 108 tai qi postures. In meditation a mantra is repeated 108 x . . . based on the astronomical observation of the distance from the earth to the sun = 108 earth diameters. Some believe that there are 108 steps for the soul to reach the divine within themself. For me it feels like a number associated with a portal . . . to transcend the 3D.
The crane is certainly a symbol of longevity, but the swan is the protector of the mythical city/place Shamballa located in the ethers (out of 3D time).
Like you I feel like there is a quantum experiment going on. And the writers certainly have suggested an alchemical process . . .especially in their use of the black rock . . . could be interpreted as the philosopher's stone/lodestone. I can't wait for more clues to be revealed.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Oh wow, brilliant points! I remember seeing something about the I-Ching having DNA /genetic sequencing tie-ins somewhere online while I was looking for information. I definitely think that you could be right -- I know that viruses have particular amino acid sequences -- and maybe they created something that replicated too quickly for them to control.
The additional 108 associations you make and the 3D and black rock comments are also excellent and fit in perfectly with a quantum-level plot direction -- All stuff I didn't know, so thanks! it will definitely be interesting to see how it plays out, because this is a pretty broad area to distill. Keep me posted if you track down those amino acids.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
oh! I almost didn't think of it -- they use amino acids in nanotechnology research in developing self-assembling nanodevices -- so they can replicate on their own ...
by: The_Sail (42 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 16, 2005
Very well thought out. I didn't even really think about Desmond giving Jack that bottle of water to drink from. Did he get it back? Did Desmond drink from it? Me thinks I have to look at that scene again.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I was just reading a summary of the last episode at thread called minute details of man of science, man of faith. So many fascinating details that corroborate some of the ideas mentioned above:
In the medicine cabinet there are visible at least 20 serum vials. On the serum bottles reads: CR4-81516-23 42
AND
Observations on the painting on the wall: The number ?108' appears on the inside of a sun and also on the outside. The numbers sequence added together is 108 -- fascinating as astronomically diameter of earth x 108 = distance to sun.
Also 108 has a lot to do with the measurement of time (kalachakra). I think the clock in the hatch read 10800 (?): The Hindu measures of time are ideal or spiritual measures. The periods are based on the numbers 27, 54, 108, 360 and 21600, numbers which we find recurring again and again in tantrik texts.
21600 = number of breaths day and night (= 24 hours) 10800 = solar, 10800 = lunar 1 breath = 4 seconds
by: chelept (39 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Very well thought out. I didn't even really think about Desmond giving Jack that bottle of water to drink from. Did he get it back? Did Desmond drink from it? Me thinks I have to look at that scene again.
Thanks for all the research.
Yes,he got the bottle back. And no, he didn't drink from it himself after Jack did. Yes, it has something to do with the plot. It was meant to happen.
by: Karoshi419 (148 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 29, 2005
This is one of the most well thought out threads I have seen so far.
Generally I like to contribute or make a smartass comment... can't do either at this time.
Well okay, I can't resist. When I first thought of the RAW connection I thought well there its out, they are just making this up as the go along. I still think this may be the case but now you have me thinking. I need to dig out my copy of th Tao Te Ching and re-read the verses matching the numbers
by: GenerationXer (105 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Fantastic well done!! ROUND OF APPLAUSE.
My mind and a few quantum threads were going along the same lines but you really brought in tons of new symbols and the clues and did the research and it is exactly right on.
Anyone with a PhD is called a Doctor, and any Healers could consider themselves Doctors, as well as Chemists and many Scientists. In one plane at least Desmond was a kind of miracle healer, I am sort of wishing he'd snap out of his present paranoia...
the only thing I want to say is I don't think the "experiment" is going wrong it could be going right.... the suffering seems sort of balanced one person dies the next person someone is born, the monsters are controlled and seem to be on a timer, etc... and you would expect balance and control in the universe so I'd think that there is no horrible problem they're just reaaally lost and confused.
Fropm what I can tell they're there because Desmond was radio transmit the numbers, 16 years ago and Hurley used the number so any flight hes on would tend to want to go the source of the number?? Hurleys the group's main link to Desmond's number.
My own discovery of 108 as follows: 2x2x3x3x3 = 108
by: LozT (76 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 25, 2005
I found it interesting you mentioned the possiblity of Chaos Theory because I've been thinking that this maybe the reason behind coincidences and destiny forming we see in the flashbacks.
What if it is an expierment to generate patterns in Chaos Theory, via the use of nanobytes or some other force. Entering the numbers before a certain time resets the pattern to keep it from growin gout of hand or sending a pulse like waves into the pattern to try and control it. Because patterns eminate on say a quantum level there is no way for the scientests to seperate themselves from the experiment and it creates a web of events/patterns that build up until it reaches a singularity.
by: janjaso (13 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I don't knwo what I'm talking about :b
ill drink to that src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I've been thinking about the logo. . . DHARMA . . . the R is reversed like a Russian letter. . . so I looked up the Russian alphabet. . . a reversed R sound is YA . . . what is also intriging is a Russian H sounds like N . . . which would make DHARMA DNA/YAMA . . . yama is the Hindu god of death.
from Wikipedia.org:
The spirits of the dead, on being judged by Yama, are supposed to either pass through a term of enjoyment in a region midway between the earth and the heaven of the gods, or to undergo their measure of punishment in Naraka, the nether world, situated somewhere in the southern region. After this time they return to Earth to animate new bodies.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I found it interesting you mentioned the possiblity of Chaos Theory because I've been thinking that this maybe the reason behind coincidences and destiny forming we see in the flashbacks.
What if it is an expierment to generate patterns in Chaos Theory, via the use of nanobytes or some other force. Entering the numbers before a certain time resets the pattern to keep it from growin gout of hand or sending a pulse like waves into the pattern to try and control it. Because patterns eminate on say a quantum level there is no way for the scientests to seperate themselves from the experiment and it creates a web of events/patterns that build up until it reaches a singularity.
I don't knwo what I'm talking about :b
Great comment -- I have been thinking more about the quantum stuff, but you could definitely be right in thinking more along the lines of chaos theory, especially when you take into account that it is based on the occurrance of apparently random, unrelated variables which are in reality part of an ordered, deterministic system. We're used to things seeming to occur in a linear fashion, and so can't see order in what looks like chaos. I have a book about chaos theory and things I could see having a possible application in the plot are trubulence/fractals, cantor sets (they look a lot like the trigram lines in the I-Ching), the Butterfly effect, and along the ines of what you mentioned, this quote is lifted directly form the book,"Not so long ago, people believed that science would simply conquer all ignorance. With technology, we would simply dominate the natural world. Chaos tells us that nature is not a simple system, ready to bend to our will. Indeed, nature can strike back, and does -- as when we breed resistant strains of microorganisms byt he widespread use of antibiotics." Interesting, huh? You could be right on... definitely things to think about. Oh, and my book opens with a picture of the yin yang symbol with a caption that the ancient Chinese realized that chaos and order are related...
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I've been thinking about the logo. . . DHARMA . . . the R is reversed like a Russian letter. . . so I looked up the Russian alphabet. . . a reversed R sound is YA . . . what is also intriging is a Russian H sounds like N . . . which would make DHARMA DNA/YAMA . . . yama is the Hindu god of death.
from Wikipedia.org:
The spirits of the dead, on being judged by Yama, are supposed to either pass through a term of enjoyment in a region midway between the earth and the heaven of the gods, or to undergo their measure of punishment in Naraka, the nether world, situated somewhere in the southern region. After this time they return to Earth to animate new bodies.
Wow. Could the writers be this cool?
I don't know src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> But the monk Tao Mo aka Dharma came to China from India, and Buddhism was imported to china from India, so there could be a connection there. Great research.
by: augoustatos (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 03, 2004
Or the plane -- does it still have an arrival time on the Oceanic website? Like for the an alternate reality where the plane did land, only a little late, and where the survivors carried on with their normal lives
i cant remember for sure,but didnt someone somewhere say that oceanics website showed that the plane did land in LA?
by: dusty_n (284 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 11, 2005
Kate, I've been thinking there was something happening with multiple dimensions or quantum theory of some sort but couldn't verbalize it as well as you did. You did an awesome job of putting it all together.
Something that may feed your interest... the author Robert J. Sawyer wrote a book called Hominids (it wont the Hugo Award for sci-fi).
The setting for the book is the Sodbury Neutrino Observatory in Ontario (it was built into a meteororite crater - just like Hugo's chicken place got hit by a meteorite). I wish I understood the kind of work they do at the SNO... perhaps you do?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hey Dusty, thanks src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> The links you attached lead to some seriously interesting stuff. I'll definitely be looking into them more, but my immediate reaction for some reason is that the SNO reminds me of Fermilab and the search for gravitons (sparticles too). Like the neutrinos, they're postulated by a physics formula to exist but now have to be detected in some way. And no, I hadn't heard of Robert J. Sawyer, but his books look like good stuff -- fiction with an element of reality.
You know, even if all of these ideas end up being way off base, in a really nerdy way it's great mental exercise. I'll comment more when I've really looked into it and (hopefully) understand it. Thanks for the links!
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Oh wow, brilliant points! I remember seeing something about the I-Ching having DNA /genetic sequencing tie-ins somewhere online while I was looking for information. I definitely think that you could be right -- I know that viruses have particular amino acid sequences -- and maybe they created something that replicated too quickly for them to control.
The additional 108 associations you make and the 3D and black rock comments are also excellent and fit in perfectly with a quantum-level plot direction -- All stuff I didn't know, so thanks! it will definitely be interesting to see how it plays out, because this is a pretty broad area to distill. Keep me posted if you track down those amino acids.
Just for fun here are the sequences . . . I doubt the writers were going that deep.
I believe there are few different systems to organize amino acid sequences by their trigram. According to chart by Jose Arquelles (who has very interesting ideas about quantum theory and time -- Time and the Technosphere) http://www.sipp.org/reference/sipp5/
Amino acid sequence would be. Does it make sense to any bio geeks? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: dusty_n (284 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 11, 2005
You know, even if all of these ideas end up being way off base, in a really nerdy way it's great mental exercise. I'll comment more when I've really looked into it and (hopefully) understand it. Thanks for the links!
I think the writers get their inspiration from a lot of different resources. They've even incorporated the Green Lantern / Flash series into Michael and Walt's characters. And the series was all about multiple dimensions existing, so it would seem a lot of the stuff their pulling inspiration from contains an element of quantum theory. Like they said, even they don't know exactly where it's going. But as long as we can see where their getting their ideas from, it's much more fun to go there with them!
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I love the writer's use of symbols from a variety of traditions. It keeps the viewers lost in thought and conjecture -- and research. In particular I like the Taoist symbols discussed earlier, numerology, and some of the classical Greek symbols.
Box symbols: Pandora's Box. . . before Pandora opens the box she hears whispers to let them out. . . Pandora alluding to Pandemic (the mysterious disease) and Pandemonium (chaos).
Sun symbols: The name Apollo is an interesting choice of candy. . . and there are lots of images of the sun in the bunker . . ie the Sun painted on the wall mural is filled with the number 108 . . . and two mysterious arrows. In Greek mythology the arrows of the sun god Apollo invariably killed, and the Greeks explained epidemics of diseases by supposing that the gods were shooting their arrows at people; and so, by praying to Apollo, the epidemic might be made to stop. In this way, Apollo became associated with the cure of diseases. I wonder if this candy bar is an arrow filled with disease or a cure? Apollo is also know as the god of order, in opposition to Dionysus, god of chaos. Man of Science/Man of Faith polarities.
The fascination with and use of well placed symbols is supposedly an illuminati trademark. In particular the Sun and all-seeing eye are the most well known, and Lost is loaded with others -- the underground bunker, chaos/order, light/dark, abduction of children, use of magic and alchemical tradition, shifting of time/dimensions. As you said, even though we don't know where we are going (lost), it's all about the journey.
by: TheFogs (49 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 03, 2005
Nice post.
I think some of the Buddhist/Daoist connections you point out will definitely materialize a little later.
I think the whole Quantum Experiment theory is given weight by the fact that so many thoughts have materialized on the island. And its not just Walt, not by a long shot.
There are scores of examples of people saying or wishing something, then having it happen. Hurley saying people need something to do and golf clubs materializing. Charlie wanting his guitar - and drugs.
Just two off the bat, theres tons of them out there.
The island may be a place where - through some scientific manipulation - our control over the universal fabric is amplified.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I love the writer's use of symbols from a variety of traditions. It keeps the viewers lost in thought and conjecture -- and research. In particular I like the Taoist symbols discussed earlier, numerology, and some of the classical Greek symbols.
Box symbols: Pandora's Box. . . before Pandora opens the box she hears whispers to let them out. . . Pandora alluding to Pandemic (the mysterious disease) and Pandemonium (chaos).
Sun symbols: The name Apollo is an interesting choice of candy. . . and there are lots of images of the sun in the bunker . . ie the Sun painted on the wall mural is filled with the number 108 . . . and two mysterious arrows. In Greek mythology the arrows of the sun god Apollo invariably killed, and the Greeks explained epidemics of diseases by supposing that the gods were shooting their arrows at people; and so, by praying to Apollo, the epidemic might be made to stop. In this way, Apollo became associated with the cure of diseases. I wonder if this candy bar is an arrow filled with disease or a cure? Apollo is also know as the god of order, in opposition to Dionysus, god of chaos. Man of Science/Man of Faith polarities.
The fascination with and use of well placed symbols is supposedly an illuminati trademark. In particular the Sun and all-seeing eye are the most well known, and Lost is loaded with others -- the underground bunker, chaos/order, light/dark, abduction of children, use of magic and alchemical tradition, shifting of time/dimensions. As you said, even though we don't know where we are going (lost), it's all about the journey.
I like all of the symbology too. It looks like you've found a ton of them that I definitely never noticed -- I LOVE the way you've tied so much of it together! Some recent thoughts:
(1) I hate to debunk my own theory, and this is really only part of the possibilities, but I did find an interview with Damon Lindelof where he said, "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent." So that doesn't sound so good for the whole wormhole/other dimensions area of quantum. It sounds like we should stick more to the quantum psychology/alchemical side perhaps?
(2) I did some looking into the Illuminatus angle and found this site which has an interesting chart:
If this group plays a factor at all in the plot (and I'm wondering because of the RAW Lndelof comment), it certainly helps tie in our Taoism/alchemy connection, as you pointed out, Aswinigirl. It also shows a lot of areas that I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm somewhat familiar with the Freemason/Hermetic quest to pass on ancient mysteries -- my grandpa had a Freemason's manual that came into my possession when he died. I have no idea where it is now, but it was pretty dense stuff. I'd like to find it and study it for clues. Aswinigirl, are you familiar with Babylonian mythology at all, or any of these other obscure names/groups? You definitely have a great knowledge of the other symbology -- I'm wondering if there are any other leading to alchemy from these other ancient traditions.
(3) I've noticed that there are a couple of posts saying that Lindelof told interviewers that all the clues can be found in the hatch mural. Anyone verify this?
Off to investigate src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Nice post.
I think some of the Buddhist/Daoist connections you point out will definitely materialize a little later.
I think the whole Quantum Experiment theory is given weight by the fact that so many thoughts have materialized on the island. And its not just Walt, not by a long shot.
There are scores of examples of people saying or wishing something, then having it happen. Hurley saying people need something to do and golf clubs materializing. Charlie wanting his guitar - and drugs.
Just two off the bat, theres tons of them out there.
The island may be a place where - through some scientific manipulation - our control over the universal fabric is amplified.
Message was edited by: TheFogs
Thanks -- I agree with what you said about the way people's thoughts seem to be amplified. I'm wondering if we've seen it happen off the island too -- like when Sarah healed. Maybe Desmond gave Jack something in that water bottle that then gave Jack the ability (unknowingly) to literally think her back to health. Lift her up with his thoughts... Many of these character have been in the hopital in the past and could have become part of a research study without knowing it.
Another direction: I know that in ancient Chinese and Buddhist lore and astrology, there are references to magic islands, men in caverns revealing secrets, etc. So you could be right on both counts.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
ie the Sun painted on the wall mural is filled with the number 108 . . . and two mysterious arrows.
I thought the arrow in the mural looked like airplane stairs at first when it zoomed in the bottom half first then went up .... anyone else notice? Makes me think the only way out is through the air by plane...
maybe like a fairy tale you have to do certain things in exact order to prove your patience and escape this place...?
I agree with the thought amplification theory this is a place where thoughts turn real.
I also have been thinking of openign the hatch as a Pandoras Box metaphor. I also think theres a lot more hidden under the bunker in lower Caverns. I wonder if the Mural suggests cavern levels.
by: DK9704 (4 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 18, 2005
It seems as if, judging by the last episode, Desmond has no clue about what condition the world outside the hatch is in REALLY. Maybe he has been lied to by someone (maybe the government, maybe a scientist group) into believing the world has been destroyed since he's been locked up in the hatch. Maybe he has also been mislead to believe that he is infected with a virus of some kind, and that he must take the vaccine on a regular basis. I think that him inputting the numbers into the computer and resetting the clock is just a reminder until he has to retake a vaccine. Someone (or some entity) has obviously provided him with enough food and power, etc. to surivive down in the hatch. The big question, if this is true, is WHY would they lie to him?
by: mrssquigg (21 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 15, 2005
That mural makes me cross eyed!! What do the houses represent? Or are they buildings? Or hospitals? And the creepy people - are they supposed to be "zombies"? Infected people? I missed all these extra interviews with the show creators , etc. so I come here to find out what I've been missing - like clues and such. All the links to screen shots of the mural are so dark it's hard to tell what's really there. Any ideas?
by: lost9tooreal4u (2 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
i have the book "Tao Te Ching" and the numbered verses/chapters could fit in with our numbers. Verse 8: "The highest good is like water. Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive. It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao. In dwelling, be close to the land. In meditation, go deep in the heart. In dealing with others, be gentle and kind. In speech, be true. In ruling, be just. In business, be competent. In action, watch the timing. No fight: No blame." Verse 15: "The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive. The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable. Because it is unfathomable, all we can do is describe their appearance. Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream. Alert, like men aware of danger. Coureous, like visiting guests. Yielding, like ice about to melt. Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood. Hollow, like caves. Opaque, like muddy pools. Who can wait quietly wile the mud settles? Who can remain still until the moment of action? Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment. Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change." Verse 16: "Empty yourself of everything. Let the mind rest at peace. The ten thousnd things rise and fall while the self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the souce is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging. Knowing constancy is insight. Not knowing constancy leads to disaster. Knowing constancy, the mind is open. With an open mind, you will be openhearted. Being openhearted, you will act royally. Being royal, you will attain the divine. Being divine, you will be at one with the Tao. Being at one with the Tao is eternal. And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away." Verse 23: "To talk little is natural. high winds do not last all morning. Heavy rain does not last all day. Why is this? Heaven and Earth! If heaven and earth connot make things eternal, how is it possible for man? He who follows the Tao is at one with the Tao. He who is virtuous experiances Virtue. He who loses the way feels Lost. When you are at one with the Tao, the Tao welcomes you. When you are at one with Virtue, the Virtue is always there. When you are at one with loss, the loss is experianced willingly. He who does not trust enough will not be trusted." Verse 42: "The Tao begot one. One begot two. Two begot three. And three begot the ten thousand things. The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace yang. They achieve harmony by combining these forces. Men hate to be "orphaned," "widowed," or "worthless," but this is how kings and lords describe themselves. For one gains by losing and loses by gaining. What others teach, I also teach; that is: "A violent man will die a violent death!" This will be the essence of my teaching."
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: The_Sail (42 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 16, 2005
You are definitely on to something. The producers (specifically JJ) have stated that out of the numbers used on the show, the number 23 was a given. When you look at the passage for Verse 23, it is clear that there is a connection.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Keepup the good work here. Bump !
I would assume the mural are the things on DESMOND's mind as he is the most likely artist. I expect Desmond was waiting for Jack by another name, and is destined to meet Jack which is going to reignite his faith to do something big together like save one Quantum level of mankind.
The question I have is What would make Desmond, A really FAITHFUL dude in the past act cynical now? What made him believe everything outside the hatch might have been destroyed? Now What does he think he is quarantined from?
I would imagine the whole sickness thing is sickness of the mind or the onset of primary fear; an epidemic of panic..... If Panic and doubt is the sickness, Danielle is like a survivor who either never paniced completely, or is very sick. Her reactions are any person's primal responses to fear (she says you have 3 choices, to run, hide or be killed) -- she might also just be a part of the security system herself. lets say desmon made the radio transmission of the numbers for some siginificant reason and 16 years ago danielle overwrote it as the security system.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I like all of the symbology too. It looks like you've found a ton of them that I definitely never noticed -- I LOVE the way you've tied so much of it together! Some recent thoughts:
(1) I hate to debunk my own theory, and this is really only part of the possibilities, but I did find an interview with Damon Lindelof where he said, "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent." So that doesn't sound so good for the whole wormhole/other dimensions area of quantum. It sounds like we should stick more to the quantum psychology/alchemical side perhaps?
(2) I did some looking into the Illuminatus angle and found this site which has an interesting chart:
If this group plays a factor at all in the plot (and I'm wondering because of the RAW Lndelof comment), it certainly helps tie in our Taoism/alchemy connection, as you pointed out, Aswinigirl. It also shows a lot of areas that I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm somewhat familiar with the Freemason/Hermetic quest to pass on ancient mysteries -- my grandpa had a Freemason's manual that came into my possession when he died. I have no idea where it is now, but it was pretty dense stuff. I'd like to find it and study it for clues. Aswinigirl, are you familiar with Babylonian mythology at all, or any of these other obscure names/groups? You definitely have a great knowledge of the other symbology -- I'm wondering if there are any other leading to alchemy from these other ancient traditions.
(3) I've noticed that there are a couple of posts saying that Lindelof told interviewers that all the clues can be found in the hatch mural. Anyone verify this?
Off to investigate src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
1. Don't give up too soon on your quantum theory. There has to be an explanation for the Others and Walt's apparition.
2. Yes, after reading about the connection to the writings of Robert Anton Wilson (RAW), I went out and bought the Illuminatus Trilogy. I can't believe I've never read his work before. It's great. A pre-cursor to X-Files and maybe even David Icke. It's not so much exposing conspiracies, but the paranoia around them. For Lost fans it's a great source of symbols and potential plot meanings.
In addition to the RAW connection, the show's producers revealed that the first number they came up with was 23. From page 23 (-24) of my edition of The Illuminatus Trilogy:
"Hagbard Celines gigantic computer, FUCKUP - First Universal Cybernetic-Kinetic-Ultramicro-Programmer -- was basically a rather sophisticated form of the standard self-programming algorithmic logic machine of the time; the name was one of his whimsies. FUCKUP's real claim to uniqueness was a programmed stochastic process whereby it could "throw" an I ching hexagram, reading a random open circuit as a broken (yin) line and a random closed circuit as a full (yang) line until six such "lines" were round. Consulting its memory banks, where the whole tradition of I ching interpretation was stored, and then cross-checking its current scannings of that day's political, economic, meterological, astrological, astronomical, and technological eccentricities, it would provide a reading of the hexagram which, to Hagbard's mind, combined the best of the scientific and occult methods for spotting oncoming trends. On March 13, the stochastic pattern spontaneously generated Hexagram 23, "Breaking Apart." FUCKUP then interpreted:
This traditionally unlucky sign was cast by Atlantean scientist-priests shortly before the destruction of their continent and is generally connected with death by water. Other vibrations link it to earthquakes, tornadoes and similar disasters, and to sickness, decay, and morbidity as well. . .
World War III is probably imminent and, considering the advances in chemicalbiological warefare in conjunction with the sickness vibrations of Hexagram 23, the unleashing of plague or nervegas or both is as probable as thermonuclear overkill. "
Numerologically speaking, 23 is a cosmic number with strong connections to arcane magic and synchronicity. It is also discussed in the works of William S Burroughs and Aleister Crowley. For a list of enigmatic 23 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_23_enigma In particular, I like the DNA connection . . . 23 chromosomes from each parent. And the parent theme in Lost in evident.
The alchemical tradition can be found in many ancient cultures. . . Babylonian (Sumerian), Egyptian, Taoist, Greek. . . and is at the root of secret societies. I have a feeling they all have similar sources.
3. There have been some cool posts about the hatch. Great symbols there! Search for the one called "Boat with Mural Sickness on Wall". It has some links to the image. Parts of it are hard to see and interpret.
Enjoy your investigations. It's sounds like you enjoy getting lost in this stuff too! Will look even more closely tonight for new clues to research. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I like all of the symbology too. It looks like you've found a ton of them that I definitely never noticed -- I LOVE the way you've tied so much of it together! Some recent thoughts:
(1) I hate to debunk my own theory, and this is really only part of the possibilities, but I did find an interview with Damon Lindelof where he said, "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent." So that doesn't sound so good for the whole wormhole/other dimensions area of quantum. It sounds like we should stick more to the quantum psychology/alchemical side perhaps?
(2) I did some looking into the Illuminatus angle and found this site which has an interesting chart:
If this group plays a factor at all in the plot (and I'm wondering because of the RAW Lndelof comment), it certainly helps tie in our Taoism/alchemy connection, as you pointed out, Aswinigirl. It also shows a lot of areas that I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm somewhat familiar with the Freemason/Hermetic quest to pass on ancient mysteries -- my grandpa had a Freemason's manual that came into my possession when he died. I have no idea where it is now, but it was pretty dense stuff. I'd like to find it and study it for clues. Aswinigirl, are you familiar with Babylonian mythology at all, or any of these other obscure names/groups? You definitely have a great knowledge of the other symbology -- I'm wondering if there are any other leading to alchemy from these other ancient traditions.
(3) I've noticed that there are a couple of posts saying that Lindelof told interviewers that all the clues can be found in the hatch mural. Anyone verify this?
Off to investigate src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Posted this response this am, but I don't see it on the thread. Maybe the language in the quotation was edited? Sorry if it is repeating.
1. Don't give up too soon on your quantum theory. There has to be an explanation for the Others, the whispers and Walt's apparition.
2. Yes, after reading about the connection to the writings of Robert Anton Wilson (RAW), I went out and bought the Illuminatus Trilogy. I can't believe I've never read his work before. It's great. A pre-cursor to X-Files and maybe even David Icke. It's not so much exposing conspiracies, but the paranoia around them. For Lost fans it's a great source of symbols and potential plot meanings.
In addition to the RAW connection, the show's producers revealed that the first number they came up with was 23. From page 23 (-24) of my edition of The Illuminatus Trilogy:
"Hagbard Celines gigantic computer, ***** - First Universal Cybernetic-Kinetic-Ultramicro-Programmer -- was basically a rather sophisticated form of the standard self-programming algorithmic logic machine of the time; the name was one of his whimsies. *****'s real claim to uniqueness was a programmed stochastic process whereby it could "throw" an I ching hexagram, reading a random open circuit as a broken (yin) line and a random closed circuit as a full (yang) line until six such "lines" were round. Consulting its memory banks, where the whole tradition of I ching interpretation was stored, and then cross-checking its current scannings of that day's political, economic, meterological, astrological, astronomical, and technological eccentricities, it would provide a reading of the hexagram which, to Hagbard's mind, combined the best of the scientific and occult methods for spotting oncoming trends. On March 13, the stochastic pattern spontaneously generated Hexagram 23, "Breaking Apart." ***** then interpreted:
This traditionally unlucky sign was cast by Atlantean scientist-priests shortly before the destruction of their continent and is generally connected with death by water. Other vibrations link it to earthquakes, tornadoes and similar disasters, and to sickness, decay, and morbidity as well. . .
World War III is probably imminent and, considering the advances in chemicalbiological warefare in conjunction with the sickness vibrations of Hexagram 23, the unleashing of plague or nervegas or both is as probable as thermonuclear overkill. "
Numerologically speaking, 23 is a cosmic number with strong connections to arcane magic and synchronicity. It is also discussed in the works of William S Burroughs and Aleister Crowley. For a list of enigmatic 23 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_23_enigma In particular, I like the DNA connection . . . 23 chromosomes from each parent. And the parent theme in Lost in evident.
The alchemical tradition can be found in many ancient cultures. . . Babylonian (Sumerian), Egyptian, Taoist, Greek. . . and is at the root of secret societies. I have a feeling they all have similar sources.
3. There have been some cool posts about the hatch. Great symbols there! Search for the one called "Boat with Mural Sickness on Wall". It has some links to the image. Parts of it are hard to see and interpret.
Enjoy your investigations. It's sounds like you enjoy getting lost in this stuff too! Will look even more closely tonight for new clues to research. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kiki73312 (192 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 23, 2005
Love your theory-best one yet! It encompasses everything I hope for and believe happened! I love quantum physics-it's such an amazing field to study and leaves me dumbfounded and dizzy! Everytime I have read books on the subject, I always am so fascinated. If this show had something to do with everything you have described, it would truly be the best show ever! But could I be so lucky, probably not. I hope they don't dissappoint us in 4 years or so with some lame, common sense reason.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
**RECAP/UPDATE**
Okay, so just to keep the thread on track, here is a recap of the general theory so far plus some new observations. The idea is to keep the theory rooted in things from the show/comments from the writers and to refine it as new information becomes available, rather than to come up with some grand explanation for everything far in advance and then try to force things to fit. A good theory should be flexible, I think, especially given the writers' creativity and how little has really been revealed. So, given the chain of reasoning in my original post...
"If you assume that the hatch area is a research facility of some sort (labcoats, computer equipment, syringes), and that the survivors are all test subjects of some kind, then the next step is to look into possible modern day connections for the reason why they chose to use that symbol. There is a field of inquiry called quantum alchemy and the much larger one of quantum physics, which have many surprising correlations with the ancient I-Ching. If you Google "quantum" and "I Ching" you'll see what I mean. Quantum physics obviously involves a really big area of study, including string theory (unification/M theory), chaos theory, and relativity. Perhaps even nanotechnology. Basically, if you look at all of these individual disciplines, there are possible explanations there for a lot (not all!) of what is going on in the plot -- quantum physics covers multiple parallel universes, synchronicity, electromagnetism, other additional dimensions, wave theory, time travel (wormholes), membranes, Schrodinger's cat, etc. Quantum psychology also could figure into the plot in a huge way. And if you add in Nan technology (microscopic ingestible/injectable nanobots, brain/thought amplification, swarms, etc.) to the mix then you can definitely explain everything . (study basic quantum stuff and read Michael Crichton's Prey and it's all there)
6. In addition to the independent I-Ching connection, there are also some thing that the writers have said in interviews that support this general plot direction. First, they have said that the plot is based on "pseudoscience". Most, if not all, of the above categories fit into this niche. Second, they (Damon Lindeloff?) have said that Robert Anton Wilson's "Illuminatus" books have been an influence, as well as "The Third Policemen". RAW has written extensively about both transcending/merging the physical and spiritual world and quantum physics/psychology and the ideas they contain.
So, basically, what all of this means to me is that whatever is going on, it likely has to do with a science experiment (gone really wrong) where the goal was essentially the same (or similar in some important way) as the goals of the ancient alchemists -- something like to transcending the physical 3 dimensional world as we know it (time travel, higher plane existence) , or to achieve longevity/immortality/self-rejuvenation through mind over matter or alternate "incarnations" in other realities/parallel universes, or something of that kind. They could be physicists (magnet work would suggest this) or chemists/medical researchers (injections/sickness would suggest this) or something totally different.
Conclusion: From these clues contained both in the actual show and in writer comments, at bare minimum we can rule out theories involving things like nuclear testing, biological weapons, genetic mirrors (did anyone ever find out if that is even an actual for-real theory?), etc. I have no idea yet exactly how or how much the ideas of Taoism and quantum physics/alchemy/psychology actually solidify in the actual show, but I think that this general direction is being indicated. Who knows, there could definitely be more than one grand explanation for everything going on..."
Update:
Given a comment from Lindeloff, "This show isn't 'The X-Files.' Everything that happens to these characters is grounded to reality as we know it. Time and space are not bent.", it seems that the areas of quantum theory mentioned above can be narrowed down a little further to exclude time travel as a possibility (though not absolutely positively). It sounds like we should stick more to the quantum psychology area, chaos theory, relativity, etc. with a heavy emphasis on the alchemy. So that's the "what" so far... Here are a couple of things I've found since the original post that have me thinking in the direction of "who":
(1) I researched the Illuminatus (RAW) angle and found some potentially significant correlations. Basically, all of the groups listed in the Illuminatus history here --> http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/Illuminati.htm were heavily involved in alchemy and esoteric knowledge. If you look at this I Ching mandala that I found here (Google image search) --> http://www.tortuga.com/science/DNA/8.
and look at the symbols that correlate with each of the "numbers" in black on the ring , you come up with interesting meanings. The symbol for 4 is an arrow, symbol of Apollo who is associated with epidemics and curing disease (courtesy of Aswinigirl); 8 is a swastika which stands for the joining of heaven and earth /the perfect being, and also are familiar with the Nazi correlation; 15 is a hexagram, which has been used in lots of ways, in this case significant because of it's use in esoteric faiths ike Kabbala and Ritual Magick, and to stand for Shiva; 16 is a hexagram in a circle which stands for the divine mind, theosophy, Freemasons; 23 is a y-shaped symbol with a center vertical line, and stands for man (symbols.com)... it could also stand for Poseidon's trident, and/or fire/water; 42 is the final symbol, and it's the only one I couldn't decipher, so help!
Basically, add these together (108) and you could have some Illuminati ingredients.
This could all end up being meaningless but it was fun to find.
(2) Lindeloff mentioned "The Third Policeman"... I've seen some posts where people think this means purgatory because it's narrated by a dead guy, but I think it simply means that we should look at the time/relativity question more closely. The book basically sort of mocks our perceptions of time by getting the character "lost" in it and there's a crazy scientist who questions Einstein's relativity theory. Maybe the whole point is our perception of our world and time, not it's actual state. It seems like the writers want people to drop some of their preconceived notions a bit and consider that our rules of time, science, etc. are essentially human-creations to some extent. Maybe Lindelof's "reality as we know it" is a loaded concept.
(3) I've seen some posts about Howard Stern saying he had it from an industry insider that it's going to turn out to be a Nazi experiment. This would work for the Illuminati angle as the "who" behind all of this because Crowley and Gurdjieff (on the illuminati chart) actually worked with the Nazis on their occult experiments. Hitler was really into that stuff, and there is even a nazi Thule society based in part on a mythical magic island. The underground "bunker"/research facility and pre-70's time line could work out okay as well there. Who knows, though, if Stern really has inside info (he's such a bastion of sound information).
(4) Of interest:
-- Rousseau, Locke, and Rutherford were all real-life philosophers/alchemists. -- many of the esoteric faiths were heliocentric (sun symbol) -- the fish is used as a symbol in alchemy (Jung) -- a couple of really interesting links on ancient alchemy and what it means in terms of time/destiny -->
Check them out! There are applications here src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Thx
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Oops --
So, Conclusion:
There is an experiment being run (or that was being run and went wrong) by a group related either in actuality or ideas alone to the Illuminatus, with the goal being something related to quantum alchemy, psychological alchemy, or anything in the scope of quantum physics/chaos theory with an application rooted both in the physical and metaphysical realms... does that sound right? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> my brain is fooging up on me.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posted this response this am, but I don't see it on the thread. Maybe the language in the quotation was edited? Sorry if it is repeating.
Yea! Great post! More comments later -- your post just appeared within the last hour or so, so I'm just seeing it after posting my recap. Got a show to watch src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: paulguerette (58 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
DUDE so sweet. I was onto a very very similar line of thought. I posted something yesterday after some brief research. Here is what I posted. Fans of this theory might find my research useful.
OK, well the logo with the yin-yang symbol in it, I think I have something useful here... please read! This involves the I Ching, and Fu Hsi's circular arrangement.. some crazy stuff, but please read this.
This symbol bears a remarkable similarity to the Fu Hsi circular arrangement with one very interesting difference. **The symbols are rearranged**
In Fu Hsi's arrangement the symbols (actuall called trigrams) are numbered from the 12 o'clock position (going counter clockwise) 1,2,3,4... THEN continuing at the 1 o'clock position (going clockwise) 5,6,7,8.
So, going from the top and going clockwise the order is 1,5,6,7,8,4,3,2
Now for the one in Lost! All of the trigrams appear in the circle, however they appear in a different order. I carefully checked it out and got the following sequence. Starting from the 12 o'clock position (going clockwise) they are as follows... 8,3,5,1,6,4,7,2.
Not I don't know much about this subject, but here is what I read online.
Fu Hsi: Fu Hsi is "was the first of the mythical Three Sovereigns of ancient China". He is a hero. From what I read (and it's not much at all) he is like the Moses of I Ching.
It may also be interesting to note what I found on this page about Fu Hsi's circle, also called the "PRE HEAVEN DIAGRAM". It's damn confusing though.
I Ching: I Ching is a Chinese thing, and I don't practice it. In fact, all I know is what I just read in the past 2 hours. Here is a Wikipedia definition on I Ching that may prove interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_ching
The Symbols: Now, about the symbols (or trigrams)... now this is pretty deep, and I just don't really understand it.. but each trigram represents something.
So what's it all mean? In short, I have no freakin idea. Why would the symbols be in a different order? If someone knows I Ching then maybe they can shed some light here.
4,8,15,16,23,42? Now for the numbers 4,8,15,16,23,42... "The I Ching book of changes" has 64 different symbols that can be derived from I Ching. Maybe the 4th, 8th, 15th, 16th, 23rd and 42nd symbols give us clues? I'm probably just reaching. Heck, maybe this whole symbol thing is a wild goose chase setup by the writers to throw us off.
SIGNIFICANCE OF 108 The Indian Subcontinent rosary or set of mantra counting has 108 beads. 108 has been a sacred number in the Indian Subcontinent for a very long time. This number is explained in many different ways.
The ancient Indians were excellent mathematicians and 108 may be the product of a precise mathematical operation (e.g. 1 power 1 x 2 power 2 x 3 power 3 = 108) which was thought to have special numerological significance.
Powers of 1, 2, and 3 in math: 1 to 1st power=1; 2 to 2nd power=4 (2x2); 3 to 3rd power=27 (3x3x3). 1x4x27=108
Sanskrit alphabet: There are 54 letters in the Sanskrit alphabet. Each has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti. 54 times 2 is 108.
Sri Yantra: On the Sri Yantra there are marmas where three lines intersect, and there are 54 such intersections. Each intersections has masculine and feminine, shiva and shakti qualities. 54 x 2 equals 108. Thus, there are 108 points that define the Sri Yantra as well as the human body.
9 times 12: Both of these numbers have been said to have spiritual significance in many traditions. 9 times 12 is 108. Also, 1 plus 8 equals 9. That 9 times 12 equals 108.
Heart Chakra: The chakras are the intersections of energy lines, and there are said to be a total of 108 energy lines converging to form the heart chakra. One of them, sushumna leads to the crown chakra, and is said to be the path to Self-realization.
Marmas: Marmas or marmastanas are like energy intersections called chakras, except have fewer energy lines converging to form them. There are said to be 108 marmas in the subtle body.
Time: Some say there are 108 feelings, with 36 related to the past, 36 related to the present, and 36 related to the future.
Astrology: There are 12 constellations, and 9 arc segments called namshas or chandrakalas. 9 times 12 equals 108. Chandra is moon, and kalas are the divisions within a whole.
Planets and Houses: In astrology, there are 12 houses and 9 planets. 12 times 9 equals 108.
Gopis of Krishna: In the Krishna tradition, there were said to be 108 gopis or maid servants of Krishna.
1, 0, and 8: 1 stands for God or higher Truth, 0 stands for emptiness or completeness in spiritual practice, and 8 stands for infinity or eternity.
Sun and Earth: The diameter of the sun is 108 times the diameter of the Earth.
Numerical scale: The 1 of 108, and the 8 of 108, when added together equals 9, which is the number of the numerical scale, i.e. 1, 2, 3 ... 10, etc., where 0 is not a number.
Smaller divisions: The number 108 is divided, such as in half, third, quarter, or twelfth, so that some malas have 54, 36, 27, or 9 beads.
Islam: The number 108 is used in Islam to refer to God.
Jain: In the Jain religion, 108 are the combined virtues of five categories of holy ones, including 12, 8, 36, 25, and 27 virtues respectively.
Sikh: The Sikh tradition has a mala of 108 knots tied in a string of wool, rather than beads.
Chinese: The Chinese Buddhists and Taoists use a 108 bead mala, which is called su-chu, and has three dividing beads, so the mala is divided into three parts of 36 each.
Stages of the soul: Said that Atman, the human soul or center goes through 108 stages on the journey.
Meru: This is a larger bead, not part of the 108. It is not tied in the sequence of the other beads. It is the quiding bead, the one that marks the beginning and end of the mala.
Dance: There are 108 forms of dance in the Indian traditions.
Pythagorean: The nine is the limit of all numbers, all others existing and coming from the same. ie: 0 to 9 is all one needs to make up an infinite amount of numbers.
by: buddhawolf (15 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2004
The best version of the I Ching is by Wilhelm/Baynes. I think this would be the best source to find clues related to it; also read a great book by Gary Zukov "The Dancing Wu Li Masters". It explores the relationship between ancient Buddhist concepts and Quantum Mechanics. I've been a practicing (Nichiren Shoshu) Buddhist for 19 years and there are amazing correlations. There was even a symposium held on the subject between Buddhist scholars & priests and Physicists, at Cern, the atomic research facility. The I Ching and Quantum Physics threads are the best I've read on these boards ! Don't you just wonder what the creators of this show are thinking when they read these posts?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I think you are right, or at least a lot closer than everyone else has been.
Thanks. Literally just got done watching tonight's episode... Part of why I love this show is that you're constantly finding out new things you didn't expect and trying to warp your brain around them. My initial thoughts are that while there's a lot of stuff that I've had wrong, there is enough that has turned out to be correct that I feel pretty good about it. The research, the group of "freethinker" scientists, possibly funded by a rich I'lluminati member? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>, the parapsychology (quantum psychology?), electromagnetism (physics), the experiment looking like it's gone wrong. .. a lot of backing up to do in some areas, sure, but not completely off base.
by: rtlost (3 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 05, 2005
I've been thinking about the logo. . . DHARMA . . . the R is reversed like a Russian letter. . . so I looked up the Russian alphabet. . . a reversed R sound is YA . . . what is also intriging is a Russian H sounds like N . . . which would make DHARMA DNA/YAMA . . . yama is the Hindu god of death.
from Wikipedia.org:
The spirits of the dead, on being judged by Yama, are supposed to either pass through a term of enjoyment in a region midway between the earth and the heaven of the gods, or to undergo their measure of punishment in Naraka, the nether world, situated somewhere in the southern region. After this time they return to Earth to animate new bodies.
Wow. Could the writers be this cool?
ok, i dont pretnd to know alot about this, but i remeber that the swan was a sacred sybol in Hiduism.
What's more is that the sanskrit word for the sacred swan is Ham Sa. this literally translates to something about breathing and the statement "i am that i am".
the word Ham comes from a root word Han (which i think means kill or die or something like that) and the opposite of Sa (which i think means inhale) is So. so hanso might mean exhales death. (link to previous posts yama?)
maybe this refers to an airborne pathogen: "the sickness"
if there is someone who knows more about all this please help. please
by: jbmeye (9 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 04, 2005
Love your theory. I read over how it developed and it's smart not too get so specific that you get stuck. I can't believe how much research people in this thread have done. Seems to me like you hit the nail on the head. You have a group of scientific researchers messing with physics and also probably chemistry. probably trying to alter psychological or physical experience or something like that, and accidentally causing sickness of some kind. The illuminatus thing not sure about, but sounds like maybe they have been trying to do the same thing as that group even if it's not related (immortality ot at least the parapsychology thing). I didn't know what alchemy was before now, but given all the island weirdness it's a pretty good guess. I think quantum-level research is definitely in there somehow too. Particle accelerators use magnets and elctromagnetic fields. And I like the idea about the amino acids and viruses. That could explain a lot. Keep it up.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Bloody ridiculous...your theory makes no sense
Wrong, and here's why:
(1) read the entire thread from beginning to end and make yourself familiar with the history of alchemy starting with the I Ching through modern times, the different goals that alchemists have had for their research through hundreds of years, the predictions and connections they have always believed to exist, and how chemistry, quantum theory (relativity, electromagnetism, quantum psychology) are all interrelated within this area of alchemical inquiry. (2) look at how all of the symbology from the show ties in with all of this. (3) look at how the writers' comments corroborate this general direction. (4) think about last night's episode, and look at the Hanso site -- the areas of study listed have all previously been mentioned in the thread as possibilities (with the exception of the extra-terrestrial study, which actually could sort of be linked with cosmology) and which are all in line, as predicted, with the general goals of alchemists (pseudoscientists) that we have been discussing for a while now.
Hanso active projects:
The Hanso - Life-Extension Project
The Hanso - Foundation Electromagnetic Research Initiative
The Hanso - Quest for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence
The Hanso - Mathematical Forecasting Initiative
The Hanso - Cryogenics Development Imperative
The Hanso - Juxtapositional Eugenics Development Institute
The Hanso - Accelerated Remote Viewing Training Facility
The Dharma Initiative - " nothing else written "
The episode corroborates our chain of logic thus far.
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by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
1. Don't give up too soon on your quantum theory. There has to be an explanation for the Others and Walt's apparition.
2. Yes, after reading about the connection to the writings of Robert Anton Wilson (RAW), I went out and bought the Illuminatus Trilogy. I can't believe I've never read his work before. It's great. A pre-cursor to X-Files and maybe even David Icke. It's not so much exposing conspiracies, but the paranoia around them. For Lost fans it's a great source of symbols and potential plot meanings.
In addition to the RAW connection, the show's producers revealed that the first number they came up with was 23. From page 23 (-24) of my edition of The Illuminatus Trilogy:
"Hagbard Celines gigantic computer, FUCKUP - First Universal Cybernetic-Kinetic-Ultramicro-Programmer -- was basically a rather sophisticated form of the standard self-programming algorithmic logic machine of the time; the name was one of his whimsies. FUCKUP's real claim to uniqueness was a programmed stochastic process whereby it could "throw" an I ching hexagram, reading a random open circuit as a broken (yin) line and a random closed circuit as a full (yang) line until six such "lines" were round. Consulting its memory banks, where the whole tradition of I ching interpretation was stored, and then cross-checking its current scannings of that day's political, economic, meterological, astrological, astronomical, and technological eccentricities, it would provide a reading of the hexagram which, to Hagbard's mind, combined the best of the scientific and occult methods for spotting oncoming trends. On March 13, the stochastic pattern spontaneously generated Hexagram 23, "Breaking Apart." FUCKUP then interpreted:
This traditionally unlucky sign was cast by Atlantean scientist-priests shortly before the destruction of their continent and is generally connected with death by water. Other vibrations link it to earthquakes, tornadoes and similar disasters, and to sickness, decay, and morbidity as well. . .
World War III is probably imminent and, considering the advances in chemicalbiological warefare in conjunction with the sickness vibrations of Hexagram 23, the unleashing of plague or nervegas or both is as probable as thermonuclear overkill. "
Numerologically speaking, 23 is a cosmic number with strong connections to arcane magic and synchronicity. It is also discussed in the works of William S Burroughs and Aleister Crowley. For a list of enigmatic 23 see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_23_enigma In particular, I like the DNA connection . . . 23 chromosomes from each parent. And the parent theme in Lost in evident.
The alchemical tradition can be found in many ancient cultures. . . Babylonian (Sumerian), Egyptian, Taoist, Greek. . . and is at the root of secret societies. I have a feeling they all have similar sources.
3. There have been some cool posts about the hatch. Great symbols there! Search for the one called "Boat with Mural Sickness on Wall". It has some links to the image. Parts of it are hard to see and interpret.
Enjoy your investigations. It's sounds like you enjoy getting lost in this stuff too! Will look even more closely tonight for new clues to research. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Awesome, awesome post -- can you believe how many of research projects mentioned in the film from the Hanso project appear in your post? I'm wondering if the donor of the enormous amount of money it would take to fund this sort of large-scale research has Illuminati ties (including the Nazi angle). This "freethinking" research group is definitely interested in the same stuff -- immortality, cosmology, chaos theory and cosmic predictions, perhaps the healing properties of magnets, longevity, rejuvenation, etc. -- all the stuff the alchemists have always been dabbling in.
I definitely don't want to let go of my quantum theory, but am trying not to become so invested in any one particular area of study that I can't adjust with the new information that will be coming with each show. You're right about there having to be explanations for the Others and Walt's apparition. I'm wondering if the answer could lie alternatively in the perception of reality, rather than in reality itself. Either/or at this point. If they figured out some way to manipulate things at a quantum levelin one of the areas of research, whether purposely or by accident and either externally or internally, and the people are being forced to deal with a paradigm shift where reality as they know it ceases to exist and they're presented with these surreal experiences that don't seem possible, it could have interesting social ramifications definitely. Maybe some of the experiments from separate stations merged in a really bad, unpredictable way. It's hard to tell, with so many variables needing to be accounted before and with the whole plot still so generalized. Desmond hitting that button every 108 minutes definitely makes me think of a lot of psychology experiments out there though, poor guy src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I'm absolutely going to go out and get the RAW books... thanks for the info! Nice to know there are other nerdies out there src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
DUDE so sweet. I was onto a very very similar line of thought. I posted something yesterday after some brief research. Here is what I posted. Fans of this theory might find my research useful.
I'm BLOWN AWAY by all of your research. I can't even believe you found all of this. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm looking forward to following up some of your ideas.
by: paulguerette (58 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
I'm BLOWN AWAY by all of your research. I can't even believe you found all of this. Thank you so much for sharing. I'm looking forward to following up some of your ideas.
Thanks. I just did some searching on the internet.
Thank you Google src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Also, don't know how many people caught this web site, it doesn't hold a ton of info, but the statement of Alvar Hanso is so deliberate. It shows that the he is an active humanist and willing to use technology to further the human race.
"the leading purveyor of high-technology armaments to NATO. " .. "always searching for new ways to improve the human experience, and create a brighter future for all humanity. "
by: paulguerette (58 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
BTW Kate, sweet original post!
I hope were on the right track. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
DUDE so sweet. I was onto a very very similar line of thought. I posted something yesterday after some brief research. Here is what I posted. Fans of this theory might find my research useful.
OK, well the logo with the yin-yang symbol in it, I think I have something useful here... please read! This involves the I Ching, and Fu Hsi's circular arrangement.. some crazy stuff, but please read this.
This symbol bears a remarkable similarity to the Fu Hsi circular arrangement with one very interesting difference. **The symbols are rearranged**
In Fu Hsi's arrangement the symbols (actuall called trigrams) are numbered from the 12 o'clock position (going counter clockwise) 1,2,3,4... THEN continuing at the 1 o'clock position (going clockwise) 5,6,7,8.
So, going from the top and going clockwise the order is 1,5,6,7,8,4,3,2
Now for the one in Lost! All of the trigrams appear in the circle, however they appear in a different order. I carefully checked it out and got the following sequence. Starting from the 12 o'clock position (going clockwise) they are as follows... 8,3,5,1,6,4,7,2.
Not I don't know much about this subject, but here is what I read online.
The ba gua is a symbol for the movement and patterns of shifting energy. There are two types: The Pre-heaven, or Fu xi, version represents spiritual energy patterns, and the post heaven, or King Wen, version represents physical or earth energy patterns. see http://www.chinapage.com/astronomy/bagua.html
The Dharma logo on lost uses the Post Heaven, or King Wen, version of the ba gua. It makes sense in terms of the taoist alchemical tradition. A major theme in Taoism is immortality. There were two roads to this: internal/external. Those taoist who practiced internal alchemy did so thru meditation and yogic like practices. Those who practiced external alchemy did so with chemicals (ie turning lead to gold) and drugs. The use of the post heaven bagua for the Dharma is perfect for a pharmaceutical/biotech company.
Does anyone think that Sun's father runs Dharma? Her name in English has an interesting relationship to alchemy. . . the sun and gold. . . can anyone translate Korean? Ironic that she can cure with herbs.
I believe Jin means metal or gold as well (at least in Chinese).
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: paulguerette (58 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
Wow, very cool. Thank you. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>. I was trying to figure it out but it was way too deep for me.
I also just found this link. It's pretty interesting and talks about the sun and 108, and electromagnetism.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
There are lots of potential meanings for the swan:
The swan is a buddhist symbol for the protector of Shambhalla -- the mystical city hidden in the ethers/other dimensions.
It is also an alchemical symbol: The alchemical process occurred through a cycle of colour changes, from an initial blackness to the perfection of the quintessence. The alchemist envisaged each stage of the process being heralded by a colour change and a meeting with certain animals.
Blackening - Black Crow, Raven, Toad Whitening - White Swan, White Eagle, skeleton. Greening - Green Lion. Rapid cycling through iridescent colours - Peacock's Tail. White Stone - Unicorn. Reddening - Pelican feeding young with its own blood, cockerel. Final transmutation - Phoenix reborn from the fire.
Perhaps Dharma, at least this station, maybe about the whitening? Makes sense with the black and white images in the mural too? Or maybe the first season was the blackening, and the second the whitening?
Hansa is sanskrit for swan, or enlightened being. ie. Parama (supreme)hansa yogananda (Autobiography of a Yogi).
The hansa is represented in scriptural lore as the vehicle of Brahma, Supreme Spirit; as the symbol of discrimination, the white hansa swan is thought of as able to separate the true soma nectar (elixir of immortality) from a mixture of milk and water.
Ham-sa (pronounced hong-sau) are two sacred Sanskrit chant words possessing a vibratory connection with the incoming and outgoing breath.
The flight of the Hamsa also symbolizes the escape from the cycle of samsara (literaly karmic scars/destiny? that theme again).
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: stayfrosty27 (26 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 09, 2004
One thing... The earth's diameter is 8,000 miles straight through, the circumference is 26,000 miles around. Either of those numbers times 108 comes no where close to the 93 million miles that seperate the earth and the sun...
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Thanks. I just did some searching on the internet.
Thank you Google src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Also, don't know how many people caught this web site, it doesn't hold a ton of info, but the statement of Alvar Hanso is so deliberate. It shows that the he is an active humanist and willing to use technology to further the human race.
"the leading purveyor of high-technology armaments to NATO. " .. "always searching for new ways to improve the human experience, and create a brighter future for all humanity. "
I like this Alvar quote: "From the dawn of our species, Man has been blessed with curiosity. Our most precious gift, without exception, is the desire to know more - to look beyond what is accepted as the truth and to imagine what is possible."
Certainly the folks on this thread are curious!
Okay, I'm a symbol's freak. . . anyone know what the Hanso logo is? It looks like some sort of bio lego set ??? Combination of H and an X? T square (masons) Or double cross (illuminati).
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
One thing... The earth's diameter is 8,000 miles straight through, the circumference is 26,000 miles around. Either of those numbers times 108 comes no where close to the 93 million miles that seperate the earth and the sun...
Ooops . . . good catch. . . I had it a little backwards . . . 108 x sun's diameter = distance from earth to sun.
The distance between the earth and the sun equals about 108 (actually 107-odd) times the suna??s diameter. Likewise, it so happens that the distance between the earth and the moon equals about 108 (actually 109-odd) times the moona??s diameter. That sun and moon look equally big in the earthly sky is the immediate result of their having the same ratio between distance and diameter. Moreover, it so happens that the suna??s diameter approximately equals 108 times the eartha??s diameter.
108 in the mural appears inside and outside the sun. This also makes me think of alchemical internal/external themes.
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: paulguerette (58 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 04, 2005
One thing... The earth's diameter is 8,000 miles straight through, the circumference is 26,000 miles around. Either of those numbers times 108 comes no where close to the 93 million miles that seperate the earth and the sun...
actually, its not the distance of the earth to the sun, it's the diameter.
you can fit 108 earths in the diameter of the sun.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Thanks, Paul src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Great link on the sun/108/Phoenix connection btw -- I had been thinking of the Phoenix in terms of its reincarnation/rebirth symbology. Never even imagined it was connected to magnetism research. And I totally forgot about the bottle from the plane.
I hope we're on the right track too. At least maybe we'll stop seeing all of these purgatory theories now src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Okay, I'm a symbol's freak. . . anyone know what the Hanso logo is? It looks like some sort of bio lego set ??? Combination of H and an X? T square (masons) Or double cross (illuminati).
Hmmm... if you take the receded section and think about it being two separate pieces, you could attach them to the main section and make a swastika. I don't know why I keep thinking of this Nazi stuff -- I think it's that stupid rumour from Haward Stern. Plus their research into the occult and magic utopian islands and superior races, and military domination, and Crowley and Gurdjieff src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I tink the writers are way too creative to blame this all on the Nazis src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I tink the writers are way too creative to blame this all on the Nazis src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hmmm... if you take the receded section and think about it being two separate pieces, you could attach them to the main section and make a swastika. I don't know why I keep thinking of this Nazi stuff -- I think it's that stupid rumour from Haward Stern. Plus their research into the occult and magic utopian islands and superior races, and military domination, and Crowley and Gurdjieff src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I tink the writers are way too creative to blame this all on the Nazis src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
oh wait, my bad -- you'd be missing an arm, huh? sorry guys
by: osiris031 (2 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 06, 2005
Hi all:
I've been reading along with all the developments and did a google search for the "FFTR" bit found inside the hatch. Several interesting results emerged. I would assume FFTR stands for something, and based on google results, these three seemed plausible:
Fast Fourier Transform Routine - a type of assembly language that may be related to the computer Desmond uses. If you follow this link:
You'll see a description of it from 1975, which again was interesting given the time period of the Dharma experiments. Perhaps the numbers tie into this assembly language in some fashion or form? Personally, I'm partial to all the research already done on the religious and cultural meanings on the numbers, but that doesn't mean it can't work both ways. The 9 prior to FFTR and the 731 obviously have some meaning, however, I haven't a clue.
The message being placed on food items seems rather inappropriate if it is computer/math linked, and further searching uncovered...
Fast Fourier Transform Rheology - Rheology is defined as the science of deformation and flow of matter. Following these links:
Rheology seems to be very broad and it actually does go into "foods" as detailed in the "about the society of Rheology" link. These studies and experiments may somehow be related to whatever may be haunting the woods in the show. The 9 and 731 still must mean something, however, I'm still at a loss.
Finally, further searching brought up...
Fast Flux Test Reactor - which helps aid in the nuclear weapons/reactor theory that has been going around. The time periods don't seem to match up, though it was coincidental and I thought worth a mention. I'm about 90% sure it's not related as according to this link:
It seems like a more modern scientific development. I know this site calls it the Fast Flux Test Facility, however, the site that linked to it referred to it as the Fast Flux Test Reactor. There may be more than one or they could be completely independent of each other. Again, I'm pretty sure this one doesn't apply, but I figured it would be worth it with all the nuclear nazi theories.
I don't know if any of this applies at all, I just thought I'd throw it out there so it can be reviewed. I'm not saying I know for sure what the FFTR reference is, I'm simply displaying what I found.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Thanks, Paul src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Great link on the sun/108/Phoenix connection btw -- I had been thinking of the Phoenix in terms of its reincarnation/rebirth symbology. Never even imagined it was connected to magnetism research. And I totally forgot about the bottle from the plane.
I hope we're on the right track too. At least maybe we'll stop seeing all of these purgatory theories now src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Okay guys, I missed the symbol on the bottle from the plane. Can you fill me in?
I'm wondering if the magnetic field is a natural one or man-made? In Orientation it sounded like the island had an innate unusual magnetic property. As some research indicates magnetic fields can cause rapid cellular growth. Could the Dharma Initiative be using it to grow a virus/cells? It might explain Locke's miraculous healing.
Research is also beginning to show how birds chart their flight paths by using a magnetic sense. Fluctuations in the magnetic field (either man-made or natural/solar flares) can interrupt their migration and orientation.
Even more theoretical (but I believe is true), humans beings also have a bit of magnetite in their pineal gland. In addition to pumping out melaton and possibly regulating sleep patterns, the pineal gland is the seat of intuition -- inner guidance. The pineal gland is also involved in alchemical transformation. Perhaps the island's magnetic properties also give supernatural insight and healing ability? (The all seeing eye of the illuminati also refers to the pineal gland, or third eye, eye of shiva etc . . . and relates in to number 23 in the opening of the eye of shiva -- the creator waking from the great dream. . . which causes death and destruction.)
So shifting magnetic fields may also shift our perception of reality. Perhaps Shannon was more effected by the field and that is why she could see Walt?
This may be a little off track, but have you guys heard about the Phoenix project? It was an attempt to control the weather using information and technologies derived from the work of Dr. Wilhelm Reich. Reich's Orgone energy is also known as "life" or "orgasmic" energy and is very different from more ordinary electromagnetic energy. Reich supposedly proved the existence of orgone energy in various laboratory experiments, and wrote up his findings in several scientific journals. He claimed that orgone energy could cure cancer. Reich also stated that orgone energy has related to "cosmic energy" and with the Newtonian concept of the "ether". With further research, Reich found that orgone energy was responsible for storms and bad weather. "Dead orgone" or "DOR" was the term used to describe the "dead energy" found within violent thunderstorms and hurricanes. This dead energy was also found within people as well. Active people had plenty of orgone energy, while those who were depressed or sullen had an excess of DOR energy. Could the island be an orgone generator?
Keep up all the great posts. . . I love your ideas and comments!
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: osiris031 (2 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 06, 2005
So shifting magnetic fields may also shift our perception of reality. Perhaps Shannon was more effected by the field and that is why she could see Walt?
Perhaps...
However, if it shifted her perception of reality then why would Walt make mention of something Shannon had no idea of? If I remember correctly, Walt said something along the lines of "don't let them open it." when he appeared before Shannon.
Walt made it known to other characters that the hatch shouldn't be opened, but not Shannon (as far as I know). Her altered perception correlating with Walt's actual feelings isn't likely, especially since she had no prior knowledge.
Walt being weary of the hatch to begin with is curious as he seems to know what's going on.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
interesting shtuff indeed!
I love this post you guys are so smart. Last night was great where do we get a full orientation tape transcript to digest every word to death? I am feeling simple minded to say I was distracted by the polar bears playing. Swan could also be in reference to the Ugly Duckling story, a swan mixed in with ducks all his life thinking he was a duck then growing into a lovely swan (who does that remind me of - no one right now) Locke's story of giving his kidney to an uncaring dad is supposed to be related to Dharma? HMMM thats all I can say HMMM
Rheology seems to be very broad and it actually does go into "foods" as detailed in the "about the society of Rheology" link.
Interesting research -- I hadn't tried figuring out that code yet at all. Of the possibilities you found, I think the most probable is this one because of the food connection. I know nothing about rheology, so I Googled it and on the first page of hits was a link to the University of Michigan food labs.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
On the Oceanic Air website, when you click on the seating chart in order of the numbers on the rows, different seats come up orange. You probably know this. On Jack's seat, if you click it you get a flashing liquor bottle with a Phoenix emblem on it, like the drink he had before the crash. It's been forever since I was on there, and I know there is somewhere where you can find a still pic of it that someone posted, but not I'm not sure where. I'm not even sure if it's still on there. I'll look though, and will post if I find it.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Okay guys, I missed the symbol on the bottle from the plane. Can you fill me in?
I'm wondering if the magnetic field is a natural one or man-made? In Orientation it sounded like the island had an innate unusual magnetic property. As some research indicates magnetic fields can cause rapid cellular growth. Could the Dharma Initiative be using it to grow a virus/cells? It might explain Locke's miraculous healing.
Research is also beginning to show how birds chart their flight paths by using a magnetic sense. Fluctuations in the magnetic field (either man-made or natural/solar flares) can interrupt their migration and orientation.
Even more theoretical (but I believe is true), humans beings also have a bit of magnetite in their pineal gland. In addition to pumping out melaton and possibly regulating sleep patterns, the pineal gland is the seat of intuition -- inner guidance. The pineal gland is also involved in alchemical transformation. Perhaps the island's magnetic properties also give supernatural insight and healing ability? (The all seeing eye of the illuminati also refers to the pineal gland, or third eye, eye of shiva etc . . . and relates in to number 23 in the opening of the eye of shiva -- the creator waking from the great dream. . . which causes death and destruction.)
So shifting magnetic fields may also shift our perception of reality. Perhaps Shannon was more effected by the field and that is why she could see Walt?
This may be a little off track, but have you guys heard about the Phoenix project? It was an attempt to control the weather using information and technologies derived from the work of Dr. Wilhelm Reich. Reich's Orgone energy is also known as "life" or "orgasmic" energy and is very different from more ordinary electromagnetic energy. Reich supposedly proved the existence of orgone energy in various laboratory experiments, and wrote up his findings in several scientific journals. He claimed that orgone energy could cure cancer. Reich also stated that orgone energy has related to "cosmic energy" and with the Newtonian concept of the "ether". With further research, Reich found that orgone energy was responsible for storms and bad weather. "Dead orgone" or "DOR" was the term used to describe the "dead energy" found within violent thunderstorms and hurricanes. This dead energy was also found within people as well. Active people had plenty of orgone energy, while those who were depressed or sullen had an excess of DOR energy. Could the island be an orgone generator?
Keep up all the great posts. . . I love your ideas and comments!
Reich is listed in that Illuminati conspiracy chart, so it might not be off track at all. Plus, meteorology is isted as an active Hanso area of inquiry. I haven't read about the Phoenix project at all, but will definitely have to.
Your comment about magnets/rapid cellular growth could tie in the DNA/I Ching thing couldn't it? Virus amino acid sequences perhaps. It does seem to me like the magnetic device is behind that walled off area, and it looks deliberately sealed like they tried to seal it off. I wonder how that could play into things. Maybe it was being used to enhance whatever they created and things got out of hand, hence the sickness...hmmm... I wish we had more information!!!
I know there is research on the healing properties of magnets, though I don't know much about it either.
I've also been thinking about the "magic" island myths that crop up throughout a lot of this research. The Orientation, to me, sounded like they chose that island specifically to study the electromagnetic fluctuations that occur there. Here are just a couple of interesting "magic" island reference I found just through a quick search...
by: jftb144 (4 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 06, 2005
1. The symbol. It is called the I Ching (after the book) or Pa Qua and is used in Buddhism, Taoism, and Feng Shui (bagua), and on the Korean flag. It is an octagon containing 8 trigrams in it, which each stand for various things in various categories. Each can stand simultaneously for an element, a body part, a direction, etc. The trigrams in the LOST I-Ching are upside down when compared to the standard I-Ching -- they start with South at the top and then go clockwise through SW,W,NW,N,NE,E,SE. Like a compass, usually N is at the top.
I am aware that there are other threads where a lot of the stuff I'm wondering about has already been being discussed for a while -- links to them would be appreciated. Also, please, anyone who has ideas or observations or answers or knows more than I do about this stuff, help out! Thx
I posted this elsewhere earlier, but to mention it in a better place--while the Dharma logo is arranged as the Post Heaven ba gua (or however you choose to spell it), the individual symbols are inverted inside to outside from what they should be.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I posted this elsewhere earlier, but to mention it in a better place--while the Dharma logo is arranged as the Post Heaven ba gua (or however you choose to spell it), the individual symbols are inverted inside to outside from what they should be.
It all depends on how you look at it -- from the outside, or from the inside. The Dharma Initiative logo is read from the outside.
I don't think the show changed the bagua because if we examine the axis of those trigrams -- sun/(wind)/heaven (father) and thunder/lake, other than the tenuous connection of Sun to her mysterious father, it doesn't fit.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
On the Oceanic Air website, when you click on the seating chart in order of the numbers on the rows, different seats come up orange. You probably know this. On Jack's seat, if you click it you get a flashing liquor bottle with a Phoenix emblem on it, like the drink he had before the crash. It's been forever since I was on there, and I know there is somewhere where you can find a still pic of it that someone posted, but not I'm not sure where. I'm not even sure if it's still on there. I'll look though, and will post if I find it.
Found it!! Thanks. Here's a still link. The oceanic site made me dizzy!
I wonder how random it was for him to get shipwrecked on the island since he appears to be connected to secret societies by this symbol. I wonder where he is going now? He can't get off the island. So many more questions.
I wonder how random it was for him to get shipwrecked on the island since he appears to be connected to secret societies by this symbol. I wonder where he is going now? He can't get off the island. So many more questions.
Totally off subject, I started dvr-ing Felicity b/c of the J.J. Abrams connection, and the episode I just watched is one in which Felicity time travels back to a difficult decision she made in the past, so she can choose to go the other direction than the one she originally chose. (her friend Megan is a Wiccan and she cast a time travel spell). Interesting, huh?
In other popular culture, for some reason last night while I was trying to get to sleep that movie From Hell with Johnny Depp popped into my mind -- probably your pineal gland mention. The movie basically blames the whole Jack the Ripper thing on Freemasons and their pineal gland research.
by: WaxyPoetic (65 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 06, 2005
Just some random thoughts:
Desmond was in a solar powered boat race before he landed on the island giving to this sun idea.
Also, the replacements to the bunker were to arrive on the island in 540 days. This number is divisible by 108 with the answer 5. Whatever the hell that means?!?!?
Totally off subject, I started dvr-ing Felicity b/c of the J.J. Abrams connection, and the episode I just watched is one in which Felicity time travels back to a difficult decision she made in the past, so she can choose to go the other direction than the one she originally chose. (her friend Megan is a Wiccan and she cast a time travel spell). Interesting, huh?
In other popular culture, for some reason last night while I was trying to get to sleep that movie From Hell with Johnny Depp popped into my mind -- probably your pineal gland mention. The movie basically blames the whole Jack the Ripper thing on Freemasons and their pineal gland research.
Rain. . . hmmm. Long shot connection maybe a reference to the Phoenix project's weather manipulation program. . . the dark orogone may also be surrounding the Black Rock. . . and there was a great rainfall as they entered the dark territory to get the dynamite. I guess time will tell.
Time Travel The Felicity comment is not so off subject, as many of Lost's characters are getting a chance to change course and make new decisions based on what they are learning in this reality. ie Locke learned about taking a leap of faith from Helen, and then shared it with Jack, Charlie got off the smack (at least for now), Kate gets a second chance. . . etc.
I keep going back to RAW's Illuminatus. It is surreal and written in flash backs and out-of- time sequencing -- no doubt a style influence -- as well as thematic influence -- for LOST.
" . . . the universe is the inside without any outside, the sound made by the one eye opening. In fact, I don't even know that there is a universe. More likely, there are many multiverses, each with its own dimensions, times, spaces, laws and eccentricities. We wander between and among these multiverses, trying to convince others and ourselves that we all walk together in a single public universe that we can share. For to deny that axiom leads to what is called schizophrenia."
Whoa! I wonder why Hurley was in the psych ward. And how he got out!
Gotta check out From Hell. Thanks for sharing! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
The solar sail race was a race around the moon in the 70's. It never succeeded and it continues to this day that they are trying to sail a ship around the moon using only solar power.
Maybe Desmond and the others crashed on the moon. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> (also relates to 108)
by: superservo15 (14 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Okay, I'm a symbol's freak. . . anyone know what the Hanso logo is? It looks like some sort of bio lego set ??? Combination of H and an X? T square (masons) Or double cross (illuminati).
I thought the logo was an H for Hanso if you tilt your head to the right... Then tilt your head tot he left and it's an F for Foundation...
Also, if you look at the solid lines (not those 2 little squares), it's a backwards 4 src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
But that was just my initial reaction to it... src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Rain. . . hmmm. Long shot connection maybe a reference to the Phoenix project's weather manipulation program. . . the dark orogone may also be surrounding the Black Rock. . . and there was a great rainfall as they entered the dark territory to get the dynamite. I guess time will tell.
Was there any mention at all of why the Phoenix project was named that?
I don't know if you saw earlier in the thread when I mentioned that I had a copy of the Freemason's manual somewhere that I had inherited from my grandpa. Well, I dug it out finally and the first thing that jumped out is the emblem on the cover. I found an exact picture of it online here...
It's the upper left one, with the 33 in the triangle. It looks a lot like the one on the liquor bottle I think. So I looked it up and found while many people think it looks like a double headed eagle, it's a Phoenix. This site has lots of symbolic references for it...
I've only had time to flip through this book, but it was published in 1871 so it's some pretty old vernacular and difficult to understand. You would not believe the symbols and references to the sun and all in it. It's some out there stuff, and I've already found some passages dealing with magnetism and alchemy that i'll have to post tomorrow. No numbers, though. There are 3 pages of index references for symbols alone, so you would love it src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
The next Felicity episode contained some dialogue on the space time continuum and the ripple effect.
I've been doing a bunch of research on how all the different Hanso projects are related with one area of research, and hope to have a post tomorrow.
Oh, and btw, did you notice how Shephard is spelled "Sheppard" on the Oceanic site? There's an alchemist named H.J. Sheppard. So that makes Rutherford, Rousseau, Locke, and Sheppard...
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
A Double Headed Bird (specficially Eagle) is the symbol of Russia Romanav Empire, supposedly it was a good omen seen by a hunting party, and the place would be the present city of Kremlin. Thats the logical symbol on a Vodka bottle. I just happen to be reading a Russian Book. Uhh... but what is the connection to recent events? The so called swan logo only has one head. what am I missing?
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
"And the stange two-headed bird that saved his life became the Imperial Double Eagle, forever the symbol of the Romanov Empire" - chapter 1 of the book Anastasia. ... if you have seen this symbol more than once, don't you think this Island might be a good hideout for the Romanovs...not to get off the topic I am just saying if the symbol is coming up twice or more.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
The Phoenix project probably got its name because it was a resurrection of the The Philadelphia project. (Rising from the ashes of that previous project). see:
The masonic Phoenix is a very old symbol that probably comes from ancient Sumeria/Babylon and the Phoenicians. If you really want to go down a vast illuminati rabbit hole I suggest checking out David Icke (books: Greatest Secret, or Tales from the Timeloop, DVDs -- usually only from indie video stores, but Netflix does have some -- Secret of the Matrix, Freedom Road).
Icke writes:
"The Freemasonic eagle with two heads looking left and right, east and west, is symbolic of Nimrod in the role of Eannus (god with 2 faces), and I would suggest that the eagle is, in part, symbolic of the winged Draco."
Draco (dragon) is a constellation in the sign of Scorpio where some believe the ancient gods/aliens/illuminati line came from. An eagle is the secondary symbol for that sign. It is also a reference point in the Milky Way that John Major Jenkins writes about in Galactic Alignment . . . another rabbit hole concerning 2012.
The Phoenix or double headed eagle (as well as winged dragons) winds up in many royal coat of arms throughout Europe and Asia ie. the Russian Romanov and English royal families. Saddam Hussan made much use of that symbol. Not only does it related to the Byzantine Emperor lead by two Roman leaders (east/west)
but also, it is an indicator that these bloodlines are related the to royal lineage of Babylon. It is a symbol of dominion over east/west . . . the world.
Looking forward to your research on how all the different Hanso projects are related.
by: MattLost130 (20 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 08, 2005
Some other thoughts. Is the Island a "worm hole" to the multiverse? Does the computer somehow keep the worm hole closed? Did the Black Rock arrive inland because it fell through a worm hole. Have you ever read the book "Time Line" by Michael Crichton. In the book a machine was made which allows time travel through a worm hole into the "multiverse" (the multiple alternate universes in space and time occurring simultaneously). The premise is based on theoretical principles of Quantum Physics. Are the voices from parallel universes? Are the images which characters occasinally see such as Jacks father, the polar bears, the dripping Walt or Saywers vengeful boar holograms created by their imaginations interacting with the powerful electromagnetic field which surrounds the Island? So many questions, too few answers. By the way in reference to another comment, the earth is not 108 diameters away from the sun. They were off by a factor of 100, its closer to 10800! The real number that was on the clock!? 108 is also the sum of "the numbers". We'll see what happens next week.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
A Double Headed Bird (specficially Eagle) is the symbol of Russia Romanav Empire, supposedly it was a good omen seen by a hunting party, and the place would be the present city of Kremlin. Thats the logical symbol on a Vodka bottle. I just happen to be reading a Russian Book. Uhh... but what is the connection to recent events? The so called swan logo only has one head. what am I missing?
The double-headed bird was on the Vodka bottle that Jack drank on the plane and shows up on the Oceanic website.
The swan is on the Dharma Initiative logo.
They have a dubious connection in their sun/secret society symbolism.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Haven't read Time Line, but have seen other posts connecting Lost themes to Crichton. The parallel universe /multiverse theme is a popular one these days thanks to Quantum Physics. Have you see The One with Jet Li? When multiverses collide.
So many possibilities. . . these writers have a great thing going. Can't wait to see what they do with it.
by: MattLost130 (20 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 08, 2005
I haven't seen the one with Jet Li, but the multiverse collision may be whats happening with the two sides of the island. The two ends of the plane. Apparently the writers have taken ideas from other movies and books, especially science fiction. I'm suspicious that they may be using a theme from the older movie "The Island" with regard to the pirates. In that movie descendants of pirates were still subsisting on a remote Bahamian island. Pirating and terrorizing leisure craft when they ventured too close. They also captured young children to indoctrinate them into their culture as due to in breeding they could not produce viable offspring on their own due to genetic defects that had manifested over several generations. This may be why Rousseau's son and Walt were taken.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Is the Island a "worm hole" to the multiverse? Does the computer somehow keep the worm hole closed?
How about the Island is inside a BlackHole - It seems the island being magnetic could be pulling people in and not letting them free/ My imagination thinks that typing the same number in the computer might be an alignment thing, keeping things aligned to that one number or frequency every 108 minutes , but I cant help thinking everytime you push the button something in the world happens like someone dies, someone is born, a ghost appears or a monster appears.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
They have a dubious connection in their sun/secret society symbolism.
First, I absolutely agree with your statement -- an Illuminati connection is tenuous at best as far as that actual particular group goes. It would actually be sort of a letdown from the writers given all of the Illuminati references that have cropped up in popular media over the last several years. I really want to think that the writers are trying to put something fresh out there. I would feel the same way about the multiverse answer, if it weren't such a good explanation for some of the plot. Per Lindelof's comment about keeping things firmly rooted in science and pseudoscience, I think it makes sense to keep the theory rooted in such as well. Like in the real world, there's a human tendency to just plug in a supernatural explanation in any knowledge gap where there's no as-yet visible natural answer (like with all of the purgatory, heaven/hell theories) rather than to simply accept that we just don't know some things. You can't just make answers materialize out of thin air because you want them to be there.
So the most I'm still willing to say now is what was said before this last episode. That there is a group of researchers or scientists, related to the Illuminati either in actuality (no conclusive evidence for this) or in ideology/goals/interests (strong evidence for this) that is conducting (or was conducting) an experiment (possibly gone wrong) in one of the fields included in modern-day alchemical thought, such as quantum theory, physics, psychology, etc. As it turned out, for this thread at least, there was less new information in the last episode than there was confirmation that we were headed in the right direction. The main new information was that there is more than one experiment in more than one field in more than one location. And also, if he's to be believed, that Desmond is also a subject or victim of the same circumstances as the survivors. It's still hard to know much more than this. The question of how the different stations interact (if they do) is sort of dependent on proximity or lack thereof.
I'll still refer to the many different esoteric groups (from ancient Buddhism to Reich -- all those mentioned in the chart à http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/) as the illuminati because it's just way easier. They are all members of an alchemical tradition interested in similar metaphysical/occult-related pursuits such as cosmology, rejuvenation, mystical healing, predicting the future, immortality, etc. Whether related to this group or not the Hanso foundation sounds like it is interested in pursuing the same alchemical goals, only in modern terminology and through modern science.
Okay so... Obviously, there doesn't necessarily have to be one single underlying explanation for the entire scope of occurrences in the plot. There could be several very dissimilar things going on, all affecting each other, but it would be cool if there was one universal theme somewhere. Since we didn't get a ton of new info in the last episode, I figure it would be good to go ahead and try to become more familiar with the different areas of study, so that with the addition of more variables it will be more readily apparent which area or areas we're seeing appear in the plot. I've been really interested in quantum theory as a possibility, relativity and time travel (either classic wormholes or ones between membranes as in string theory), and nanotechnology (Michael Chrichton's Prey). But the first thing I wanted to explore more is Chaos theory. One, because some of your comments, Aswinigirl, reminded me of some of the chaos theory stuff I've read (the ones re: the pineal gland, bird migration and electromagnetic fields), and secondly because barring future revelations of any linear nature to explain the presence of all of these people on this island, it really seems like they are all part of one great big invisible deterministic system. Chaos postulates that all of the crazy coincidences we experience in life aren't actually such -- there is order in chaos and chaos in order. Chaos theory could be a possibility because it can be applied to any system on any level, from cosmic down to quantum.
(4) Here are some sites explaining the basics of chaos theory, for anyone who reads this thread and doesn't know anything about it :
Basically, I've been going through each of the different projects Hanso is running and exploring whether they have anything in common besides being geared towards traditional alchemist goals, like one particular field of research, and they do all have chaos theory applications. Several of them share the electromagnetic field angle as well. I'm not saying I'm even close to claiming this is an answer in any way, but it is very interesting. If you look at a lot of the phenomenon described in chaos, like bifurcations and fractals, and synchronicity and strange attractors, etc. , there are definitely possibilities.
Like, is their some sort of periodicity appearing in the different events on the show, past and present.... Could there be something that has all of these people on the same path around a strange attractor (the numbers maybe?) Is there an existing mathematical model which the numbers would fit into? How does time play into chaos theory?
There is either a linear explanation for the plot of LOST or a nonlinear one. If it's nonlinear, then chaos might be the way to go. There definitely seem to be some deterministic about them all ending up on that island, and how there are interrelationships between different cast members appearing.
Anyway, I'm in the middle of listing how chaos theory applies to each project but I'm seriously sick of this computer and being a huge Saturday nerd. I'll hopefully post that soon. And then chuck the chaos angle and start looking at things from a different one. Whew! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Of Note, the name Kelvin appeared when I started looking into cryogenics.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Some other thoughts. Is the Island a "worm hole" to the multiverse? Does the computer somehow keep the worm hole closed? Did the Black Rock arrive inland because it fell through a worm hole. Have you ever read the book "Time Line" by Michael Crichton. In the book a machine was made which allows time travel through a worm hole into the "multiverse" (the multiple alternate universes in space and time occurring simultaneously). The premise is based on theoretical principles of Quantum Physics. Are the voices from parallel universes? Are the images which characters occasinally see such as Jacks father, the polar bears, the dripping Walt or Saywers vengeful boar holograms created by their imaginations interacting with the powerful electromagnetic field which surrounds the Island? So many questions, too few answers. By the way in reference to another comment, the earth is not 108 diameters away from the sun. They were off by a factor of 100, its closer to 10800! The real number that was on the clock!? 108 is also the sum of "the numbers". We'll see what happens next week.
Message was edited by: MattLost130
Great thoughts. I've been wondering from the beginning about the possibility of wormholes and parallel universes. I haven't read Timeline (oh wait, I think I might have -- is it about students of medeival europe?) but am familiar with this area of hypothesis.
String theory had an interesting take on this idea, with the idea of parallel membranes and the existence of dimensions in which for each point where you make a choice in life, all of the alternate scenarios are lived out simultaneously. So like, for each choice you make and live out in your dimension, there are others where you made a different choice also in existence. This is interesting to me because it seems like the show keeps flashing back to difficult decisions each character had to make in their lives -- pivotal moments.
Your questions are great ones! It should be interesting finding out the answers src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I haven't seen the one with Jet Li, but the multiverse collision may be whats happening with the two sides of the island. The two ends of the plane. Apparently the writers have taken ideas from other movies and books, especially science fiction. I'm suspicious that they may be using a theme from the older movie "The Island" with regard to the pirates. In that movie descendants of pirates were still subsisting on a remote Bahamian island. Pirating and terrorizing leisure craft when they ventured too close. They also captured young children to indoctrinate them into their culture as due to in breeding they could not produce viable offspring on their own due to genetic defects that had manifested over several generations. This may be why Rousseau's son and Walt were taken.
Do you know the story of Pitcairn island? It's sort of similar, only a real life place. This idea would explain The taking of Rousseau's son and Walt, definitely -- I haven't been able to come up with a good explanation for that, other than that it may have something to do with being young and not having been exposed to much (for some kind of bilogical purpose). Not that that's a good one. This show is a tough one src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: MattLost130 (20 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 08, 2005
Wait -- wasn't it Rousseau's daughter?
I think it was a boy but it wouldnt matter, a girl would be just as if not more valuable.
With regard to string theory and alternate universes based on choices that we make, I think that may be what's happening with the survivors of the tail section. Instead of choices for good and assuming good intent, they may have early on made the opposite choices and we are seeing the results of that path.
In the orientation film he talked about strong electromagnetic fluxes on this particular portion of the island. After Jack entered the hatch his key was lifted up by a magnetic field down there. Could base #3 itself be a portal? Are the fluxes rythmic/cyclical every 108 minutes? It also appeared that the film had been spliced/cut around the time he was talking about the "incident". Was something crucial deleted? The individual numbers must mean more than just adding up to 108. Are they coordinates in 4 dimensional space and time? (4,8,15,16,23,42) ???
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
But the first thing I wanted to explore more is Chaos theory. . . . Chaos postulates that all of the crazy coincidences we experience in life aren't actually such -- there is order in chaos and chaos in order. Chaos theory could be a possibility because it can be applied to any system on any level, from cosmic down to quantum.
Like, is their some sort of periodicity appearing in the different events on the show, past and present.... Could there be something that has all of these people on the same path around a strange attractor (the numbers maybe?) Is there an existing mathematical model which the numbers would fit into? How does time play into chaos theory?
There is either a linear explanation for the plot of LOST or a nonlinear one. If it's nonlinear, then chaos might be the way to go. There definitely seem to be some deterministic about them all ending up on that island, and how there are interrelationships between different cast members appearing.
Does anyone know anything about semiotics?
Wow! I love how you think and put it all together. After reading your last post, I've pulled out my dusty copy of Gleick's Chaos for some more ideas:
There is definitely a strong Chaos element in Lost. Starting with the number 23.
Twenty-three (along with 5) is the number of Eris, goddess of discord, according to the Principia Discordia; it is the number of the Illuminati. 5 shows up in the recent episode because the keeper of the hatch is suppose to be at their post for 540 days (5 x 108). There may also be a 5 next to the external 108 on the mural.
Discordianism is a modern, Chaos-based religion founded in either 1958 or 1959. It has been described as both an elaborate joke disguised as a religion, and as a religion disguised as an elaborate joke. Geek that I am, I watched Lost again last night and realized that although Jack is annoying, he may be right. Pressing the button may be part of a Skinner box. What will the lab rat do? It could all be a big joke, a mindf**k.
This theme is repeated over and over in RAW's Illuminatus Trilogy: "A is not A. . . Once you accept A is A, your hooked. Literally hooked, addicted to the System."
(Okay this could explain my behavior at this message board.)
Re your comment on linear/nonlinear explanation. I'd go for the non-linear (or both - the writers could actually be doing both). . . especially in light the experimental twist to the plot. "Nonlinearity means that the act of playing the game has a way of changing the rules." Maybe that's why I like Locke so much. He is able to go with the flow.
The unique electromagnetic properties of that sector of the island could indeed be a Lorenz attractor (butterfly effect, sometimes called owl eye. . . both symbols relating to illuminati). Many question remain like what is creating the geodynamo and how does imputing the numbers relate to it, if at all? And what was that "incident" mentioned in the Orientation video.
The only thing I know about semiotics (reading signs and codes) is from a literary perspective. (Eco's work). I could see how it might apply to lots of other fields, biology, anthropology. It might even be the basis of the Hanso project. Please share your thoughts on this. Are you at all connecting semeoitics with John Locke (An Essay Concerning Human Understanding) and our beloved Locke character?
After last night re-cast of Lost, I noticed that in the trailer that Ana-Lucia is in an underground tunnel/bunker. Now I'm wondering if the other survivors have found another bunker? Is it part of the same station (ie. does the island contain more than one station). Also been wondering about Desmond's escape hatch that Kate exited? Does that tunnel go any where else? Why didn't the survivors find the exit from that tunnel before? Is it that well hidden? So many questions. I guess I will have to wait until Wednesday.
One last thought. How does time play into chaos theory? In the natural world, I would think time would be the period need to see the order develop from the chaos. The shorter the period the more random it appears. But my mind is a little fuzzy on this. Any thoughts?
by: back_gammon (1628 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Hi, just discovered this thread. I had been thinking along similar lines as these last couple of posts, but I posted over on the general board. (Duh. What was I thinking.) Here's a cut and paste, if anyone wants to read.
So the incident occurred prior to 1980, when the film was made to instruct people on the revised protocols and perhaps revised mission of the hatch.
The incident disrupted what was previously a delicately tuned balance, a harmony of sorts
A happens then B, then C
So what incident (A) would disrupt a finely balanced harmony, and cause the hatch's protocols mission and protocols to change
A= Incident B= Disrupted balance and harmony C=Hatch's mission and protocols changed
Are we positive the incident occurred on the island? We know it had an effect on it, but can we know with certainty where it occurred?
Could a clue to what or where the incident occurred be in the flashbacks? All we know at this time is in 1976 Sawyer mailed a letter. Can we assume it is related to any of the characters actions directly. or could it be a so called Butterfly effect?
A = Incident ??? B = Butterfly Effect (sensitive dependence on initial conditions) C = Chaos (new and creative imbalances;not bad, just different)
And while the right hand was pointing to the numbers, the left hand was holding on to this quote from the text: "Since repeated experimentation proved otherwise, Lorenz concluded that the slightest difference in initial conditions - beyond human ability to measure - made prediction of past or future outcomes impossible."
Thus, A, or the incident, could have been anything. A = Anything. Anything at all, a leaf dropping from a tree. Anything. And we may not know until the final episode what that was.
So we still have tons of questions. Why was the protocol changed? Did Hansa learn about Chaos Theory at one of those high-level government meetings he attended? Why does someone have to enter the numbers? My guess is it increases the potential for human error. Human error is not necessarily a bad thing. Wink.
Please forgive if this has been debated before. I'm new to the boards and searched chaos, theory, and butterfly and got 100,008 hits. Overwhelming to sift through that many posts.
Does anyone know if you can google the message boards?
I'll wait to chime in further until I go back and read all the earlier posts - might take a while - it's a pretty long thread.
Nevertheless, you were asking about Semiotics. I did a lot of work in Semiotic theory in grad school. And Chaos Theory and Chaosmosis Theory as well. If you have a specific question ask away and I'll try to help.
by: Sayiditisntso (35 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 07, 2005
Well done Kate!!! I've had all these same ideas sort of floating around in my head, but couldn't quite articulate them. Just amazing!
OK, you asked about semiotics. Basically, semiotics is the study of how symbols and signs play a role in social life. Saussure, a linguist, sort of pioneered this area of inquiry. More importantly, Saussure was a big influence on the work of Claude Levi-Strauss, an anthropologist of the French structuralist school of thought. "Structuralism is a general approach in various academic disciplines that seeks to explore the inter-relationships between some fundamental elements, upon which higher mental, linguistic, social, cultural etc "structures" are built, through which then meaning is produced within a particular person, system, culture." (Wikipedia)...In otherwords, it helps us see how everything in the social world is inter-related. Am I wrong in remembering that in the Orientation film that Jung was cited as an influence? If so, this goes along nicely with his idea of Synchronicity. But back to Claude Levi-Strauss (CLS). CLS was of the opinion that certain objects/ideas/philosphies/mythes/symbols are constant throughout all civilizations/cultures in all times. He called these certain things "mythemes". Today, Richard Dawkins (zoologist) has sort of co-opted this idea, and reduced the phrase to "memes". This field of study is rather large, and somewhat difficult to absorb. Dawkins also claims that these memes are subject to the laws that govern evolution, selection, fitness and all that. But, I digress. The other thing about CLS is that he was an extrememly popular theoritician during the late 60's into the late 70's. His ideas were so popular that they transcended the academic world and became widely known among the general populace. Would the social scientist Degroots (sp?) that "founded" the Dharma Initiative have been aware of these ideas? Most certainly.
Again, I really enjoy this thread. Great work everyone!
-------------------------------------------------------------- What does my right eye see?
by: happywatcher (3 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 25, 2005
Wow..... Such heavy thinking for a TV show. I enjoy the show, never miss it - but just don't have the time to put all that thought and research into it.... You know with work and life to occupy my time.
by: back_gammon (1628 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
If I may add, proponents of Structuralist theory attempted to understand various linguistic and cultural structures by analyzing binary oppositions. Binary oppositons are things that are thought to be opposites, ex: hot/cold up/down, black/white.
The rationale behind this is that words/meaning have no inherent property of their own, but are only given meaning by what they are not. For example, the word and meaning of hot cannot exist or be understood without its opposite cold.
Moreover, in all culture specific binary oppositions, one of them will be priviledged, ie thought to be better or more desirable than the other, and that this priviledged position corresponds to the ideology of the culture. Examples: young/old, tall/short, fat/slim,man/woman, science/faith, black/white, etc.
Semiotics attempted to analyze culture by the study of these binary oppositions.
Structuralist theory, however, lost status in the academic world in the late 70's early 80's when Jacques Derrida blew the field wide open with his deconstructionist theories. It was like a bomb had been dropped.
More current thinking involves the application of various emergent theories that are clustered together as Post-Structuralist theories - all influenced by Derrida.
Grossly simplified, these theories attempt to understand language and culture by first and foremost admitting that binary oppositions only go so far to explain various linguistic and cultural phenomenon and that no system (structure) is closed (one of the flaws in Structuralist thinking) but exists in a state of dynamic tension.
I have observed so many instances of this dynamic tension in Lost, it cannot be coincidental.
by: Sayiditisntso (35 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 07, 2005
Shoot! I can't believe I forgot the binary part! Nice catch, Back_gammon. And your addendum was very interesting and informative as well. Let's just hope for all our sakes that the writers aren't as up on post structural theory as well. How disappointing it would be if they threw up their hands, as Derrida did, and proclaim it all too complex and "nuanced" to ever be satisfactorily explained!
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Wow..... Such heavy thinking for a TV show. I enjoy the show, never miss it - but just don't have the time to put all that thought and research into it.... You know with work and life to occupy my time.
Are work, life, and critical thinking mutually exclusive?
MattLost130, Aswinigirl, Backgammon, Sayiditisntso, and any others interested in this thread, thanks so much for your comments and research! It's awesome to read all of these thoughts and perspectives which add so much. I'll hopefully post more chaos stuff later, especially after I've had a chance to really read everyone's posts. Thx again for your thoughts and knowledge.
by: Sayiditisntso (35 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 07, 2005
Are work, life, and critical thinking mutually exclusive?
MattLost130, Aswinigirl, Backgammon, Sayiditisntso, and any others interested in this thread, thanks so much for your comments and research! It's awesome to read all of these thoughts and perspectives which add so much. I'll hopefully post more chaos stuff later, especially after I've had a chance to really read everyone's posts. Thx again for your thoughts and knowledge.
Hey Kate, you seem like you're pretty up on the physics/metaphysics stuff. What do you know about the theory that once something comes into existence, it increases the probablility that that exact thing can come into existence a second time...and into infinity, in an upward spiral? If you know this crazy theory's name, let me know. Thanks! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: back_gammon (1628 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Shoot! I can't believe I forgot the binary part! Nice catch, Back_gammon. And your addendum was very interesting and informative as well. Let's just hope for all our sakes that the writers aren't as up on post structural theory as well. How disappointing it would be if they threw up their hands, as Derrida did, and proclaim it all too complex and "nuanced" to ever be satisfactorily explained!
LOL! these theories are so complex it's hard to know what should be included in a thread for general readers - but the black and white stones and all the other black and white references in Lost made me think it was important to include binary oppositions.
Here's just a humble guess about how Derrida & Post Structuralist thinking comes into play in the series.
So far, I've observed the dynamic tension and the destabilizing process primarily in the character or "human" storylines, with the writer's seeming to do a nice job of not letting viewers get too comfortable. For example, the science/faith opposition is constantly in play and never stable for more than a few minutes. Another example is the good guy/bad guy opposition. We're so used to seeing "flat" all good/all bad characters these round characters are quite refreshing.
I think the writers can keep Derridean-influenced notions, as they apply to character, going on forever, as long as the red state/blue state culture wars rage on, and as long as the First world/rest of the world opposition continues. And we're just now getting to the them/us opposition with the introduction of "the others."
Now, as for the hatch and all the other wacky island hijink stuff, I'm thinking of that as almost a separate story element and applying a different, but not conflicting, paradigm. Read my post above regarding Chaos Theory if you like - it's the only scientific theory I've come up with that may unify the various mysterious phenomenon, remain inclusive of the character narratives, and keep the door open for as yet unknown island developments. As with all theories and theory applications, however, it is tentative and tenuous.
by: Sayiditisntso (35 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 07, 2005
back_gammon- Ohhh...pardon me, just having a big "AH HA!" moment here. The Derrida stance makes so much sense in the context of the character development. And of course the writers would be very aware of Derrida, no way would they have gotten through college without learning deconstructive methods, theory, etc.
On the chaos part, I'm bothered by the timer in the hatch. It has to be reset every 108 minutes, yes, but there seems to be a 4 minute interval in which the resetting can occur. If the DeGroots are running an experiment, why would they deliberately insert chaos into the conditions? If, when "doing" science, the capacity to replicate the study and get the same results is the gold standard of "proof"? There's no falsifiablity in this method, so it's not "science"...or maybe that's the point?
OT: You know, I always suspected Dawkins of not crediting CLS's influence in his formulation of his meme theory. But I see now that it's Derrida's work, if indeed the meme/memeplexes undergo mutation as a result of selection pressures.
by: back_gammon (1628 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
sorry, I don't know anything about Dawkins, so I can't comment on that.
As for the 4 minute "grace period" on the timer in the hatch, that one's been really intriguing and puzzling me. And, why have a human hit the execute button in the first place when a computer program could reset the 108 minute countdown with a much more accuracy and reliability. Then it struck me that perhaps the 4 minute grace period is the whole point. 4 minutes is a long time, and if hitting execute really does anything, whatever it does will occur at "random" times within the parameters of 4 minutes.
So, in short, perhaps the project's intention is to introduce something to the island at random moments, to increase the probability of NOT getting the same ??? to occur, to produce or map an infinite number of "butterfly effects" maybe. Just a guess. If this is true, it would seem to indicate someone/something somewhere else analyzing the results, and at this point I don't know if that is true or not.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Why does someone have to enter the numbers? My guess is it increases the potential for human error. Human error is not necessarily a bad thing. Wink.
Hey - what if Repeating the numbers on the computer is a Quantum or Scientific based Mantra? Mantras in religion (the repetition of words, deeds or prayers) are RECOMMENDED to help you align with God, to meditate vibrate with that thought, example would be chanting Ohm or Jesus or Peace over and over. Mantras are intended to help you align to a certain thought or higher power and make it grow in strength in their own mind. By typing this particular number over and over, THEY are aligning with it and making it stronger in their island or lives, whatever it means ...lets say the number is to a certain Quantum Reality. I would think they are keeping a Quantum Portal door open with this number in their own minds or else they might shift out the Quantum reality? The scientists wanting to control the universe might have reasons why they want THIS Quantum door open. The splicing is interesting too. I want to see what was spliced out.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hey - what if Repeating the numbers on the computer is a Quantum or Scientific based Mantra? Mantras in religion (the repetition of words, deeds or prayers) are RECOMMENDED to help you align with God, to meditate vibrate with that thought, example would be chanting Ohm or Jesus or Peace over and over. Mantras are intended to help you align to a certain thought or higher power and make it grow in strength in their own mind. By typing this particular number over and over, THEY are aligning with it and making it stronger in their island or lives, whatever it means ...lets say the number is to a certain Quantum Reality. I would think they are keeping a Quantum Portal door open with this number in their own minds or else they might shift out the Quantum reality? The scientists wanting to control the universe might have reasons why they want THIS Quantum door open. The splicing is interesting too. I want to see what was spliced out.
The numbers as mantra is an interesting idea -- fits in with the 108 as a mantra is repeated in 108 incremenets measured by a mala/prayer beads. The narrator of the Orientation video, Dr. Marvin Candle?, finishes with Namaste. . . the traditional parting salutation after yogic practice meaning something like, "the light in me, honors the light in you."
Even Leonard was repeating the numbers over and over at the institution. Mantra is used to align with the more ordered aspects of the universe, but there are left-handed tantra techniques to align with disorder/chaos. Other negative uses include mind-control. It will be interesting to see how this plays out . . . did the Dharma Initiative start out as a humanitarian research project? Or is that just a cover? I also would like to know what was cut out. . . and what the . . . "incident" was.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
RANDOM POST NUMBER 1
Hey guys this is all totally hypothetical exploration here... Just for fun, I'm going to list some ways /Complexity theory could be found/related to the plot:
-- The survivors all seem to be caught in a scenario where they think (except Locke and Hurley) that everything is completely random chance and there is no underlying reason or mechanism to any of it. Chaos theory postulates that in dynamic systems that appear to be chaotic and made up of unrelated variables, there is actually a very orderly and deterministic underlying pattern to its behavior. Because viewers have a bird?s-eye view of it all, we know that there are definitely patterns there. (or we're just a great axample of semiotics in action). If there is a mutual strange attractor involved, be it the numbers or the island or something else naturally occurring or manmade, then it could explain why they have all ended up where they are and why there are some past connections between some of them. If they are all variables who have unknowingly been traveling along a Lorenz-attractor type trajectory or some other similar pattern (like marbles circling a bowl), it would make complete sense that some of them would have met or come close to meeting or been in the same broad vicinity before. So far we have been shown this to be true in the cases of Desmond and Jack, Sawyer and Jack's dad, Rutherford (if he's significant) and Jack, Hurley and Locke...anyone else that we know of so far? This all begs some huge questions like, what is the attractor? And, would they have had to come into contact with it before? Why is it attracting them? Etc. But that stuff could become clearer as we learn more.
-- The main period of Chaos theory's introduction began in 1963 with the meteorologist Edward Lorenz. Throughout the rest of the sixties and especially early 70's. Chaos theory was THE exciting, new, cutting-edge scientific area of study. Computers were making new things possible and the timing would have been perfect for someone looking for new technologies and discoveries to be excited about funding research in this area. Because technological breakthroughs are chaotic-- sometimes occurring by chance and sometimes as a result of years of painstaking research -- the philosophy of large-scale multi-disciplinary research (a holistic approach) is indicated as the best option for advancements. Within the larger social/ecological study of the Hanso research community there are the smaller sub-studies of each individual station.
-- Because of the newness of this area of research and the excitement that came with it, scientific safety may have been sacrificed. Chaos theory shows that an infinitesimally small change in any system can appear at first to have little effect, but over time can lead to results of catastrophic proportions. If any one of the stations changed or tampered with nature's naturally occurring system, it could have led to some really bad outcomes (the sickness, genetic mutations, the swan station "incident") which they likely would not have foreseen until it was too late. Before chaos theory, there was a simplistic view that science led to only to knowledge and power without any price to pay for this view. We now know that new diseases, global pollution, species extinction, climate change, etc. are all results of the unexpected impacts of simple-minded science and technology on nature.
There are so many terms and ideas associated with chaos theory that it's hard to think about them all cohesively. This link is key in understanding how all of the different areas and ideas of Chaos theory could apply to the show...
-- Given all of the time differentiation and variables involved, I'm wondering if any of these things come into play in terms of those? Periodicity, Period three chaos, synchronicity, bifurcations, Butterfly effect,equilibrium -- anything applying to cyclical or tangential movements... Any thoughts ?
-- As far as the numbers are involved, one idea that's interesting to me is that they could be a sort of Feigenbaum's number type of thing. Could they represent a universal constant, either fictional or from real life, that the Hanso scientists discovered and applied broad-spectrum to their research? Are the survivors naturally attracted to it or artificially, a la a Manchurian candidate type of implantation? I've looked through some of the constants from real life but not many, and obviously have yet to find a match.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
RANDOM POST NUMBER 2
Following are applications of chaos theory for each of the Hanso projects...
I. Life Extension: Chaos theory is used in medicine to study epilepsy, heart attacks, neurology, otolaryngology, viruses, cancer, and in alternative medicine the self-healing mechanisms of the body. Unpredictable events in medicine, such as the fluctuations or frequency in some diseases or the course of certain cancers, may be attributable to chaos theory. A better understanding of physical issues cam lead to cures/prevention which increases longevity hence life extension. (illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality)
II. Electromagnetic Research: This can apply to physiological areas as well as quantum mechanics. Like the ancient alchemists, chaos theorists can study the healing possibilities and affect of electromagnetic fields on the body?s systems. Magnets are in the category of "attractors" in chaos theory http://www.schuelers.com/ChaosPsyche/part_1_6.htm , and the earth's magnetic field has been found to affect the seemingly chaotic migratory patterns of birds, bee, butterflies, and possibly even people. At the quantum level, chaos has been investigated at a quantum level by applying a magnetic field to the atom. (illuminati connecting idea=magnetic healing/cosmology)
III. Extra-terrestrial Intelligence: Belief in extraterrestrial life was present in ancient times, but in the form of cosmology rather than "aliens" as we usually think of it today. Whether this is referring to actual aliens or simply any intelligence not located on Earth is unclear. If the reference is to aliens, then there are chaos theory applications in communication systems and radio waves in the vein of Nasa's SETI program. It can be applied to the entire solar system in terms of intergalactic dynamics (Poincare). If the reference is cosmological, the existence of some divine "intelligent" mechanism behind everything like a god or gods, then chaos theory could explain in natural terms occurrences which have been previously attributed to this mechanism by some. There are some mysterious crop circle formations that resemble "Julia sets" in chaos theory. I think that since the writers want to steer away from an alien explanation, and to be consistent with the ancient alchemist's studies, it may refer to extraterrestrial physics and spirituality along the vein of this site à http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:l7r6hGhE5KUJ:ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/+chaos+theory+extraterrestrial&hl=en&client=firefox-a (illuminati connecting idea=cosmology)
IV. Mathematical Forecasting: This one is easy to connect because chaos theory is a subcategory of mathematics and is rooted in meteorology à http://pear.math.pitt.edu/mathzilla/Examples/chaos/studentReports/DanielAnderson.html . Because the Hanso film mentions meteorology as an area of study, we can assume that is what they are doing in this project. However, chaos theory can be used to create mathematical models which can then be used to make forecasts about all kinds of systems such as financial markets, warfare, urban development, epidemics, etc. Chaos is actually a subcategory of the mathematics field, so it's easy to connect this project to it. Basically it can make sense of systems that appear on their face to have none, and increase the accuracy of shorter range predictions, but because chaos increases with time it isn't effective for long-term predictions. The predictability of complex systems is limited. (illuminati connecting idea=astrology/predicting the future)
V. Cryogenics: (the name Kelvin pops up in this area) A branch of quantum physics, it is the study of how to get to low temperatures and how atoms behave once they get there. We can probably assume they mean cryogenics in terms of the human body even though it can be applied to lots of things because it would fit in with the longevity/immortality goal. Because the body is made of atoms, understanding how the body's structures are affected by extremely low temperatures is important to this research. Blood vessels, the circulatory system, lungs, muscle tissue, practically the entire body -- all of these are fractal structures. Fractals are an important part of the geometry of chaos theory. (illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality)
VI. Juxtapositional Eugenics: Obviously, chaos theory can also be used to study genes, chromosomes and DNA in terms of the way these cells replicate and behave, their stability and instability, and how they evolve over time and handle changes. It can be used to study the initial conditions of our genetics and conception as they affect our consciousness and development, and what happens when those initial conditions are altered. Eugenics is basically the idea of discarding inferior genetics for superior ones -- the heredity improvement of the human race. (see Francis Galton). Juxtapositional basically means "side by side", and I'm not sure exactly what this means in terms of the project.(illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality/human transcendence)
-- Chaos can pretty much be applied to every other area as well -- consciousness, neural networks, sociology, psychology, group dynamics, etc., so for the larger scope experiment Hanso mentions -- including the whole utopian social research community and probably including the remote viewing training facility -- it can also be studied.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
RANDOM POST NUMBER 3 -- QUESTIONS
-- Could we be seeing period three chaos occurring in the plot? Chaos theory at all? Is chaos theory way too complicated of a concept to use in a mainstream tv show? -- Could the numbers be a Feigenbaum-type thing, a "constant" discovered and applied by Hanso to every project? -- A BIG one -- are the "apparitions" experienced by the different cast members internal or external phenomena? In their heads and perception or really happening in the external environment somehow? -- Are the names of scientists that are cropping up hints to the viewers? It would seem possible,especially if the "Sheppard" spelling on the Oceanic site is intentional. So far we have Locke, Rousseau, Rutherford (his bio and that of Neils Bohr sort of remind me of Hanso?s biography), Sheppard, Kelvin. Locke is definitely always looking for signs (semiotics). Do the areas of study of the other scientists also have applications (other than the alchemical ones)? -- Schroedinger's cat -- In the orientation, Hanso speaks of the electromagnetic research at the swan station in past tense. There are definitely quantum chaos experiments where atoms are subjected to a magnetic field which has to be reset at regular intervals... It looks like they tried to seal off the magnetic area (those look like the big joint-compound buckets in front of the door), so if that's what went awry (way before the 1980 orientation film) why is it still running? There seemed to be a growing, churning, oscillating sound when the timer was counting down the last few seconds. -- Why the giant weapons cache in the hatch, and the need for an airlock? -- Does Desmond ever leave the hatch? Kelvin obviously did to go out and get Desmond, which begs the question of how in the heck did he know Desmond's boat had crashed out there on the reef if he only had that little periscope contraption. Kelvin also braved the quarantine to do so, if the sickness has been around 16 years (per Rousseau?) -- If Desmond does not ever leave the hatch, then Kelvin's body has to be in there too. Otherwise, since he doesn't communicate with anyone, he can't know for a fact that Kelvin is dead. Did Kelvin leave and Desmond believes he's dead because he didn't return? -- Not only is there the question of how Kelvin would have seen Desmond's shipwreck, it sounds like he saw it pretty much as soon as it happened. How? And how did the Others happen to know that the raft existed, had been lauched, and which side of the island to be looking for the raft in their boat. They got to it really quickly. How does the security system know when to deploy? Is it tripwires or something, or is this all indication of the remote viewing facility? -- Is/was Rousseau's hideout one of the other Hanso stations, abandoned? She could have found it at the earliest 1988 (I think). It would be pretty hard to believe she just rigged her own random cave up with electricity, so was it already set up because it was a former station? -- Desmond didn't know about the plane crash, and Rousseau didn't know. So Ethan probably isn't Kelvin, unless he just abandoned Desmond and let him think he was dead. -- Did either Rousseau or Desmond say whether their ships were completely destroyed? Could the Others' boat be the one Desmond crashed, only repaired? It had masts for sailing as well as an engine. -- Who is Locke always talking to? God or his "higher power" (if his anger management program was 12-step) or someone else? Was his paralysis physical or psychosomatic? -- Why did the tail section survivors have a big cage pit with a lid dug in the first place? They obviously had it already when Jin was caught. Did they do it for hunting reasons, or have the experienced others on the island as well? -- The end of the countdown sequence where Locke made Jack push the button resembled a Pascal's Wager situation to me. The whole plot does in a way. Thoughts? -- Does anyone think the security system sounded in part a little like when they pull up anchors in old movies? I'm wondering if it could be something very simple, like humanly constructed from the anchor mechanism and the gunpowder (black smoke) from the Black Rock. Doubtful, but I'm trying to figure out what would represent people's greatest fears... it seems like other people's capacity for evil would be up there. -- Jack's first surgery was a spinal surgery. Sarah's surgery was spinal. -- The lines of the trigrams sort of resemble Cantor sets -- Fourier was a chaos theorist whose name came up previously in the thread re: the FFTR part of the food labels -- is there any significance to this?
by: itzdavey (17 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 10, 2005
I am a buddhist myself actually and since the beginning I thought there was something to it. At first there was nothing specific really, just the general flow of the show, and the themes that came into play. When I heard the word "Dharma" in the last episode that realy got me thinking. Dharma is the word we use all the time to refer to "the law" (not a written law but laws of the universe). And to teachings, and generally it often just means "things" with reference to anything within the scope of Buddhist teachings.
Reincarnation
I don't actually "believe" in reincarnation (not a requirement for being a buddhist).
But one thing I thought was interesting, but might have just been for the dramatic effect, was birth and occuring simultaneously in one episode. Boon was dying as Clair's baby was being born.
Clair's baby = Boone?
Karma
The role of Karma seems to play heavily into the plot. People refer to themselves possibly being "punished" on the island for things they have done. Or in Locke's case, the opposite has happened. Something he had lost (his ability to walk) has been given back to him. (Doubt he'll be getting a kidney back any time soon!)
In general there is a give an take aspect to the stories. Something is lost - something is gained. Boone referred to the island in this way saying "You have to give the island what it wants." Or something like that.
These are very general philosophical points on my part. Probably nothing specific or helpful here, but I hope somebody finds it interesting.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Wow! I love how you think and put it all together. After reading your last post, I've pulled out my dusty copy of Gleick's Chaos for some more ideas:
There is definitely a strong Chaos element in Lost. Starting with the number 23.
Twenty-three (along with 5) is the number of Eris, goddess of discord, according to the Principia Discordia; it is the number of the Illuminati. 5 shows up in the recent episode because the keeper of the hatch is suppose to be at their post for 540 days (5 x 108). There may also be a 5 next to the external 108 on the mural.
Discordianism is a modern, Chaos-based religion founded in either 1958 or 1959. It has been described as both an elaborate joke disguised as a religion, and as a religion disguised as an elaborate joke. Geek that I am, I watched Lost again last night and realized that although Jack is annoying, he may be right. Pressing the button may be part of a Skinner box. What will the lab rat do? It could all be a big joke, a mindf**k.
This theme is repeated over and over in RAW's Illuminatus Trilogy: "A is not A. . . Once you accept A is A, your hooked. Literally hooked, addicted to the System."
(Okay this could explain my behavior at this message board.)
Re your comment on linear/nonlinear explanation. I'd go for the non-linear (or both - the writers could actually be doing both). . . especially in light the experimental twist to the plot. "Nonlinearity means that the act of playing the game has a way of changing the rules." Maybe that's why I like Locke so much. He is able to go with the flow.
The unique electromagnetic properties of that sector of the island could indeed be a Lorenz attractor (butterfly effect, sometimes called owl eye. . . both symbols relating to illuminati). Many question remain like what is creating the geodynamo and how does imputing the numbers relate to it, if at all? And what was that "incident" mentioned in the Orientation video.
The only thing I know about semiotics (reading signs and codes) is from a literary perspective. (Eco's work). I could see how it might apply to lots of other fields, biology, anthropology. It might even be the basis of the Hanso project. Please share your thoughts on this. Are you at all connecting semeoitics with John Locke (An Essay Concerning Human Understanding) and our beloved Locke character?
After last night re-cast of Lost, I noticed that in the trailer that Ana-Lucia is in an underground tunnel/bunker. Now I'm wondering if the other survivors have found another bunker? Is it part of the same station (ie. does the island contain more than one station). Also been wondering about Desmond's escape hatch that Kate exited? Does that tunnel go any where else? Why didn't the survivors find the exit from that tunnel before? Is it that well hidden? So many questions. I guess I will have to wait until Wednesday.
One last thought. How does time play into chaos theory? In the natural world, I would think time would be the period need to see the order develop from the chaos. The shorter the period the more random it appears. But my mind is a little fuzzy on this. Any thoughts?
I have never heard of Discordianism -- Crazy stuff src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I definitely think you could be right about the Skinner-box thing. I've wondered if it's all a big psych experiment too -- maybe even including us src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> I certainly feel like we are seriously engaging in semiotics looking for all of these clues everywhere.
Per your RAW comment, I've been trying to think of things that we might count as fact based on trusting the survivor's perceptions-- for example, they think they're on an island, they think they killed a polar bear, they think the Black Rock is a slave ship, they think they are seeing things, even that they think they've been in a plane crash... if we accept all of the mythology of the island, then are we stuck thinking in the box it creates?
I would love to know what the incident was too!
Yes, I actually brought up semiotics because of the Locke connection src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I don't remember the trailer you're referencing, but I guess the odds are just as good that the tail section survivors found another of the stations. Locke and Boone sure hit on the swan station by weird chance (or was it?). I've been wondering if Rousseau's former hideout was one of the other stations -- it was definitely wired for electricity.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hi, just discovered this thread. I had been thinking along similar lines as these last couple of posts, but I posted over on the general board. (Duh. What was I thinking.) Here's a cut and paste, if anyone wants to read.
Fantastic post -- thank you so much! I have been wondering about virtually the same possibilities, only in much a less-educated and knowledgeable way src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Your post is so articulate and logical in making your points -- you can probably easily answer a lot of the questions I've posted as to the viability of chaos theory as a plot device. Please chime in as much as you like src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Well done Kate!!! I've had all these same ideas sort of floating around in my head, but couldn't quite articulate them. Just amazing!
OK, you asked about semiotics. Basically, semiotics is the study of how symbols and signs play a role in social life. Saussure, a linguist, sort of pioneered this area of inquiry. More importantly, Saussure was a big influence on the work of Claude Levi-Strauss, an anthropologist of the French structuralist school of thought. "Structuralism is a general approach in various academic disciplines that seeks to explore the inter-relationships between some fundamental elements, upon which higher mental, linguistic, social, cultural etc "structures" are built, through which then meaning is produced within a particular person, system, culture." (Wikipedia)...In otherwords, it helps us see how everything in the social world is inter-related. Am I wrong in remembering that in the Orientation film that Jung was cited as an influence? If so, this goes along nicely with his idea of Synchronicity. But back to Claude Levi-Strauss (CLS). CLS was of the opinion that certain objects/ideas/philosphies/mythes/symbols are constant throughout all civilizations/cultures in all times. He called these certain things "mythemes". Today, Richard Dawkins (zoologist) has sort of co-opted this idea, and reduced the phrase to "memes". This field of study is rather large, and somewhat difficult to absorb. Dawkins also claims that these memes are subject to the laws that govern evolution, selection, fitness and all that. But, I digress. The other thing about CLS is that he was an extrememly popular theoritician during the late 60's into the late 70's. His ideas were so popular that they transcended the academic world and became widely known among the general populace. Would the social scientist Degroots (sp?) that "founded" the Dharma Initiative have been aware of these ideas? Most certainly.
Again, I really enjoy this thread. Great work everyone!
Thanks for the semiotics primer. Funny, I was a sociology major but do not remember studying semiotics. Structuralism, yes, a lot, but not semiotics src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Obviously, the goings-on on the island (and off) have been very interesting in regards to the sociological realm. I'm really interested to see how introducing a "currency" of sorts (food) will affect the social dynamics of the group. And funny you should mention it, but I'm also personally interested in memes so your digression is welcome. I did not know that "mythemes" were their predecessor. Anyway, it seems that we're certainly looking at a broad social/psychological experiment wich contains within it the Hanso station's "sub" experiments. The question is how far-reaching is the scope of this larger experiment. Is it island-contained and the survivors are external to it or are they somehow also part of it? Did they unintentionally join it upon arrival at the island or is this experiment basically defunct in Hanso terms, and only still alive for us the viewers? I love that the timing of CLS's work is perfect for the timeframe we're looking at.
Thanks much for the post and the info src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
If I may add, proponents of Structuralist theory attempted to understand various linguistic and cultural structures by analyzing binary oppositions. Binary oppositons are things that are thought to be opposites, ex: hot/cold up/down, black/white.
You are serious brainiac src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Yes, theses binary oppositions appear in Lost all over the place. The Faith vs. Science one I believe to be overarching -- I think the whole point in part is the interplay between these two. Your whole post is great -- thx for the thoughts,
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hmmmm... I think some of the ideas in chaos theory are germane to your question....maybe read up on Ruelle and aperiodicity? Not sure, I'm new to chaos theory and am trying to learn as I go. Lemme know what you find out src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
PS. Hey Sayiditisntso this is in reply to your question... Hey Kate, you seem like you're pretty up on the physics/metaphysics stuff. What do you know about the theory that once something comes into existence, it increases the probablility that that exact thing can come into existence a second time...and into infinity, in an upward spiral? If you know this crazy theory's name, let me know. Thanks! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Sorry I forgot to include it src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hey - what if Repeating the numbers on the computer is a Quantum or Scientific based Mantra? Mantras in religion (the repetition of words, deeds or prayers) are RECOMMENDED to help you align with God, to meditate vibrate with that thought, example would be chanting Ohm or Jesus or Peace over and over. Mantras are intended to help you align to a certain thought or higher power and make it grow in strength in their own mind. By typing this particular number over and over, THEY are aligning with it and making it stronger in their island or lives, whatever it means ...lets say the number is to a certain Quantum Reality. I would think they are keeping a Quantum Portal door open with this number in their own minds or else they might shift out the Quantum reality? The scientists wanting to control the universe might have reasons why they want THIS Quantum door open. The splicing is interesting too. I want to see what was spliced out.
Interesting thoughts, definitely. Perhaps the "magical" number 23 that we've heard the writers always planned on using has been discovered by Hanso to actually be only part of a "magical" sequence (the numbers)which affects the universe at a quantum level?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I think the writers can keep Derridean-influenced notions, as they apply to character, going on forever, as long as the red state/blue state culture wars rage on, and as long as the First world/rest of the world opposition continues. And we're just now getting to the them/us opposition with the introduction of "the others."
Do you think there is possibly any value or insight to be gained in considering ABC's connection to Disney in terms of the direction the faith versus science questions in the show's plot may be heading?
by: back_gammon (1628 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
What do you know about the theory that once something comes into existence, it increases the probablility that that exact thing can come into existence a second time...and into infinity, in an upward spiral? If you know this crazy theory's name, let me know. Thanks! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I'll throw this in the blender:
Can't remember the precise name of the theory, grad school was about 5 years ago, but I remember in a Chaos Theory seminar the Prof introduced the idea of "Archipelagoes of Thought" to further our discussion of random/non-random pattern.
Simply stated, "Archipelagoes of Thought" means that ideas come into many peoples minds at the same time all across the globe, even though they have never seen or heard of each other and may be separated by geography. For example, if Einstein had ben killed in a car crash, the theory of relativity would have still been "born" because someone somewhere else would have been thinking along the very same lines at the same moment in time.
A way to explain this phenomenon is a collective unconciousness (see Jung). A way to visualize this collective unconsciousness is to think of islands of an archipelago. An aerial photo would show islands, all separate with miles of water around them. But an underwater photo might reveal that all these islands are really connected below sea level and are part of one big mountain range.
Hence, the patterns you see depend on your perspective.
Another interesting idea posed by the Prof is that things in the physical world (example: airplane) cannot exist until the collective unconciousness is ready to collectively have the mental idea of an airplane. Thus, for example, if time travel were possible, and an airplane went back to the Roman Empire days, the airplane would cease to exist because the "collective mind" could not think it into reality.
by: bonniegeen (8 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 28, 2005
I've wondered if it's all a big psych experiment too -- maybe even including us I certainly feel like we are seriously engaging in semiotics looking for all of these clues everywhere.
AHHH!!!! You guys are all amazing!! <bending at waist with hands outstretched in front> "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!!" All these high brain theories running through the boards. I wonder if the writers ever thought the plot would head down this path.
As in the quote from above that I pasted to my reply... I am still under the belief that this IS some bizarre cruel experiment on the writers' part. It didn't start out that way. They had a serious direction I'm sure, in the beginning. They probably even had an idea what the monster was that they introduced in the pilot, and that smoke that carried Locke away...and then came the message boards and BIG SWITCH!! They began to read the intelligence of their loyal fans and found that if they followed through with some lame *** 'other world monster' or 'pergatory' plot line they would be butchered and "never work in this town again". So they began to take their leads from you guys. They are developing this like that old game we used to play as kids...telegram?? Where one person would start the story with the intro scentence, or general thesis....and the story would morph and 'become' as it wove its way through the participants. All connected by a thin "thread".... As I said before....I am just along for the ride, once this thread took a scientific bend, I was seriously LOST. My science in HS was FFA...but I AM intrigued and amazed and just waiting to see where this is headed. They may leave us all wondering, which came first, the script or the thread.
by: bonniegeen (8 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 28, 2005
Aye, me too Back -gammon. It will be great to see how far they can take it. Sure, there will be some fans that drop off because it's "too confusing" or something, or that WANT answers....but that will be all the better for us, who know that most the fun is in the anticipation, the build up to the climax. Who know that the climax is actually the end, and we never want to see the END....then we know, and we don't get to wonder or theorize or guess or hang on by a 'thread' until the next episode!!
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
LOL, I agree with both of you src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> There's something in this show for everyone and everyone wants to figure it out, and naturally hopes that the answer lies in their area of interest. It's like being double-dared -- sometimes it just makes you more determined.
I've read several interviews with the writers and know only a few things for sure. They are trying to keep the plot rooted in science and pseudoscience, the only original one of the numbers was 23, they are fans of The Twilight Zone, Robert Anton Wilson, Michael Crichton, and a few other sci-fi writers I can't recall at the moment, they have always know what the monster was from the beginning, they were not going to have the survivors open the hatch until they knew what was going to be in it, it's not purgatory or aliens and the survivors are not dreaming, maybe I've missed a few, AND they are hoping to possibly extend the plot for like EIGHT seasons. Arrgh! We should probably all just settle down, huh? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Even knowing you're probably not even close, it sure is fun trying to take them up on their dare.
by: back_gammon (1630 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Hey Kateq, I looked at your random questions # 3 post, but I haven't had a chance to think about any of the questions with any kind of focus. Been over on the general board playing and reading the pants thread. it's hilarious. Gotta go rest my head a while.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hey Kateq, I looked at your random questions # 3 post, but I haven't had a chance to think about any of the questions with any kind of focus. Been over on the general board playing and reading the pants thread. it's hilarious. Gotta go rest my head a while.
Hey...some of the questions aren't exactly well thought out in the first place (the security system one is particularly stupid in hindsight, but I sometimes try to go for an Occam's Razor sort of thing as an alternative to all of this complicated thinking), so no worries. I'll look forward to your comments though.
??? Pants thread??? Do I even want to know? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: Sayiditisntso (35 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 07, 2005
Aye, me too Back -gammon. It will be great to see how far they can take it. Sure, there will be some fans that drop off because it's "too confusing" or something, or that WANT answers....but that will be all the better for us, who know that most the fun is in the anticipation, the build up to the climax. Who know that the climax is actually the end, and we never want to see the END....then we know, and we don't get to wonder or theorize or guess or hang on by a 'thread' until the next episode!!
It's almost better than sex.
Have y'all seen the BBC promo from season 1? Sure, the music is definitely re-dubbed. A friend of mine is of the opinion that the writers are creating as we go along, reading our posts and so forth. He also thinks that the writer's original intent was to have the survivors be in purgatory. But, when the viewers chimed in on the mssg boards, they changed their minds. Search (on this mssg board) UK promo, and hit the first link. What do you think?
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
So glad the mantra alignment idea was well recieved here!
The numbers have been effecting the solar system by ripple effect already, as Hurley heard the numbers ways outside the island and used it on the lottery and then everything on earth changed... sounds like it even redirected a meteor to his house. Hurley is telling a ripple effect story and its going to be interesting if the ripples stop peacefully if he just changes the numbers once or something like that.
I wondered about all those gun cache as well... This must be Hollywood style Taoism theory with lots of violence and conflict!
There is a poetic similarity of the words Hanso & Swan. To note
Maybeeeeee the numbers are ages / Maybeeee they are calendar years.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hey S, I've seen a promo with techno music that some people from the UK have said is fake. It has weird techno music (if I found the right one?), and I'm positive that I saw still shots of that in a photo shoot for a magazine. Instyle maybe? Not sure, but it could just be some footage from the shoot with music dubbed in. Or legit, no idea src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> If I find the photo shoot anywhere online I'll link it.
Anyway, here's a link to an About.com interview with Lindelof , plus some additional quotes. It's pretty clear to me from these that purgatory was never in the picture. A purgatory plot wouldn't be science fiction, and it sounds to me like they've always been writing science fiction. Plus they're both huge fans of science fiction and have both written some before themselves (both about time travel, which is interesting)
"We do know what the island is and have all those answers and they lean very heavily into the scifi category, but those are answers that scare our parent company. While they are content with the mysteries, they are not content with the answers. There is an interesting level to that, which I appreciate, but then there is the challenge of how long an audience will be invested in the show and in these characters without getting enough concrete answers... We are holding back, but it's not like we want to burst forth and admit we are a scifi show in the closet coming out." - David Fury, "Lost" writer
"This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters. The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off. There is also the possibility of others being on the island, they just haven't seen them yet. And we'll never know how big this island is. It could be enormous, but odd things will keep them from knowing the full length and breadth of it." - David Fury, "Lost" writer
"How will you deal with the fact that Malcolm David Kelley (Walt) will age and grow much faster than is reasonable considering the time line of the show?" "We are building a Malcolm David Kelley robot." - Damon Lindelof, producer of 'Lost' in an interview
"They don't tell us anything. In the beginning I thought how exciting it would be if the character is discovering things at the same time as the audience. But now I'm frustrated at wondering what happens. Is there a plan?" - Naveen Andrews (Sayid), in "The Times"
"We're being forced to look at ourselves. This island is like a big mirror to your demons." - Josh Holloway (Sawyer), on "Lost: Revealed"
"When I'm running away from it, I think of an African elephant with 17 cats stuck to its back." - Dominic Monaghan (Charlie) on his vision of 'The Beast' in "The Times"
Quotes from Lindelof and Grillo-Marxuach at a Lost convention: We won't kill sawyer. The theory of all the survivors being dead is not true. The plane did not crash by accident, it crashed for a very specific reason. But he dismissed speculation that someone aboard the plane caused the crash. What's in the hatch will have an effect on Locke. The rear section of the plane - and additional survivors - will be discovered during the second season. The people who kidnapped Walt, the young boy, are the "others" on the island. - from "The LA Times"
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Hi All,
My crazy freakishly prolific Lost-addicted self will be offline for most of the next few days due to a really packed schedule. I REALLY hope that this thread will continue as I've really been enjoying all of this stimulating discussion. Here are a couple more comments to add to the giant mountain of them I've already piled on everyone...
Back gammon, Sayiditisntso,
I've been thinking a little about your posts, and have a couple of musings to add. First, perhaps they are requiring manual human resetting of the timer because, if some are monitoring whatever the experiment is remotely, it is proof that the hatch operators are alive inside the research station. Maybe the earlier "incident" involved some sort of foul-up that went unnoticed for a time and because of that had disastrous consequences -- maybe it was something that needed to be closely monitored and somehow wasn't, like if something happened to the operators.
Second, I'm wondering if they were trying to do research specifically on nonequilibrium dynamic systems. If so, they would have a reason to want to keep whatever it is in a chaotic state and prevent equilibrium from occurring. I've been reading about experiments on these online, and it seems that in some, researchers have been able to use an electromagnetic field and by controlling its strength or weakness they can create deliberate chaos/nonequilibrium in a system. Then they basically have control of the sytem in a sense, because they can either increase or decrease the strength of the field at will. Also, by preventing entropy, they can better study the patterns and behaviors of the variables. Perhaps the natural fluctuations of the island were attractive for this because they had a ready-made electromagnetic field at their disposal and just ready to be controlled. Or it has nothing to do with chaos experiments whatsoever.
It doesn't really matter whether their work had anything to do with chaos/complexity at all. Per the Butterfly effect, tampering for any reason with this naturally occurring field could have theoretically led to a huge ripple effect which could quite possibly have had ramifications on other dynamic systems from the quantum to cosmic levels. Granted, if the swan station is actually an elaborate hoax in the vein of B.F.Skinner and the EMF idea was fed to the operators as part of a big psych experiment, then the Butterfly effect would have to originate somewhere else. But it seems to me that if you research the effect of EMF's on human behavior, animals, cells, DNA, etc. you find great explanations for the "apparitions", auditory hallucinations, animal aggression, etc., and so it would suggest there really is an electromagnetic phenomenon involved which is being used for research. Hanso, being a munitions/high tech weaponry guy could have been interested in potential of EMF's for its potential military purposes-- from some of the stuff I've read on the theory of developing them for use in warfare, I can see why you would definitely want to observe such an experiment remotely! Together with his obviously firm beliefs about where the human race should be heading, you can see why he would be willing to put a lot of money into this broad-spectrum research (you can Google and find serious EMF applications for almost all of the Hanso experiments)
But basically, the point is that Chaos theory can apply to the plot regardless of the scope of the individual studies, where the "incident" occurred, or which Hanso study (if any) it was connected with. Somebody messed up somewhere src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I'm starting to wonder if the plot of Lost is a unified cautionary tale with two sub-tales: the human angle dealing with the future consequences/effects of present (or past) actions; and the cosmic effects that we could experience if we disregard scientific safety and do not attempt a careful consideration before manipulating nature.
"Chaos is the supreme ideal of Taoism. Chaos is wholeness, oneness and Nature. Chaos represents the natural state of the world. Digging holes on the head of Chaos means destroying the natural state of the cosmos. Therefore, to the ancient Chinese people chaos not only has the meaning of disorder but also presents a respectable aesthetic state. This idea of chaos may be very different from its western counterpart. It seems quite reasonable to consider the Sun (Chaos) as the earliest ancestor of the Chinese nation."
Sorry for being so prolific as of late. It can't be healthy src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> I hope to rejoin the thread in a few and can't wait to hear what you all come up with! Here's to having all of our thoughts reshuffled by the next episode src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
A couple of the really interesting EMF links with Lost applications(please read'em if you have the time)
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
The numbers as mantra is an interesting idea -- fits in with the 108 as a mantra is repeated in 108 incremenets measured by a mala/prayer beads. The narrator of the Orientation video, Dr. Marvin Candle?, finishes with Namaste. . . the traditional parting salutation after yogic practice meaning something like, "the light in me, honors the light in you."
Even Leonard was repeating the numbers over and over at the institution. Mantra is used to align with the more ordered aspects of the universe, but there are left-handed tantra techniques to align with disorder/chaos. Other negative uses include mind-control. It will be interesting to see how this plays out . . . did the Dharma Initiative start out as a humanitarian research project? Or is that just a cover? I also would like to know what was cut out. . . and what the . . . "incident" was.
Aswinigirl, I was just flipping through the Freemasons manual and there are literally pages worth of passages dealing with the symbolism of numbers. For example there are 33 pages where the number 3 is discussed. And that isn't including where it is part of a sequence. There are about twenty different pages explaining how numbers are significant in regards to different esoteric groups. It is mind-numbing trying to sift throught them. Anyway, I was thinking of posting some of it but would seriously need to narrow down what's germane. Any numbers I should concentrate on, in your opinion? The index lists 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,14,16,25,26,27,30,36,40,365.
by: NomadontheGo (5 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 11, 2005
Just a thought: The different sectors in the DHARMA logo, as well as the numbers, are representative of the divisions in reality, or dimensional layers. The Hanso foundation was experamenting attempting to discover these layers and how to use them when something went wrong and they accidently brought the division between the layers to the brink of collapse. If all the layers were to come together then chaos would reign and eventually everything would be lost. Entering the numbers into the computer is the only thing holding up the walls of separation.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Twenty-three (along with 5) is the number of Eris, goddess of discord, according to the Principia Discordia; it is the number of the Illuminati. 5 shows up in the recent episode because the keeper of the hatch is suppose to be at their post for 540 days (5 x 108). There may also be a 5 next to the external 108 on the mural.
Looking through this Freemasons book, there is a pretty big deal being made about the number 9. It says "everyone is aware of the singular properties of 9, wich, multiplied by itself or any other number whatsoever, gives a result whose final sum is always 9, or always divisible by 9." If you think about it, 108 (1+0+8)=9; 540 (5+4+0)=9; 4 8 15 16 23 42 (4+8+1+5+1+6+2+3+4+2)=36 (3+6)=9
It says " the ancients regarded this number with a sort of terror;they considered it a bad presage; as the symbol of versatility, of change, and the emblem of the frailty of human affairs." They avoided and also numbers like 81 which add up to 9.
Other mural stuff?
It says "The number 5 was considered mysterious because in wat compounded of the Binary, Symbol of the False and Double, and the Ternary, so interesting in its results. It thus energetically expresses the state of imperfection, of order and disorder, of happiness and misfortune, of life and death, which we see upon the Earth. The the mysterious societies it offered the fearful image of the Bad principle."
There are 64 pages of sun references. Nothing, in the index at least, about the eye.
It also says "When the Syrians and Eqyptians would represent anything as odious, or express hatred by heiroglyphics, they painted a fish"
The 23rd Degree of Masonry: Resurrects the esoteric mysteries, placing the key to the inner secrets of Life in the hands of the Initiate.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
Did I mention my theory the island is inside a black Hole?... I am amazed at how revealing those producer/director quotes are ... people end up there but never to their knowledge ever leave, that sounds to me like a black hole reference ... Kate I am going on vacation for 2 days as well. I have this site bookmarked. I will bump it back to life if anyone forgets... but I think you have a group of awed followers who will never forget you... src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
If I may add, proponents of Structuralist theory attempted to understand various linguistic and cultural structures by analyzing binary oppositions. Binary oppositons are things that are thought to be opposites, ex: hot/cold up/down, black/white.
The rationale behind this is that words/meaning have no inherent property of their own, but are only given meaning by what they are not. For example, the word and meaning of hot cannot exist or be understood without its opposite cold.
Moreover, in all culture specific binary oppositions, one of them will be priviledged, ie thought to be better or more desirable than the other, and that this priviledged position corresponds to the ideology of the culture. Examples: young/old, tall/short, fat/slim,man/woman, science/faith, black/white, etc.
Semiotics attempted to analyze culture by the study of these binary oppositions.
Structuralist theory, however, lost status in the academic world in the late 70's early 80's when Jacques Derrida blew the field wide open with his deconstructionist theories. It was like a bomb had been dropped.
More current thinking involves the application of various emergent theories that are clustered together as Post-Structuralist theories - all influenced by Derrida.
Grossly simplified, these theories attempt to understand language and culture by first and foremost admitting that binary oppositions only go so far to explain various linguistic and cultural phenomenon and that no system (structure) is closed (one of the flaws in Structuralist thinking) but exists in a state of dynamic tension.
I have observed so many instances of this dynamic tension in Lost, it cannot be coincidental.
But then again...
Enter Chaos Theory.
Message was edited by: back_gammon grammar goof
Wow, great posts Back_gammon and Sayiditisntso.
Interesting connection to the black/white symbols, back gammon! The ultimate in dualistic thinking. Yikes. Thank goodness somebody realized no system is closed. Unfortunately for the Dharma Initiative, they may have realized this a little too late, eh . . the "incident."
The binary opposition also reminds me of yin/yang theory and the binary sequencing of the i ching.
In 1974 Dennis and Terence McKenna (binary set of brothers, one a scientist, the other a poet-philospher), wrote The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinations, and the I Ching. In an attempt to understand the neurobiological processes of the subjective experience of the mind, these two investigated the how shamanic use of psychedelics effected neurochemistry/biology. Using a deconstructionist shift of context, they found a pattern, or rhythm, moving through time. Kate, this may relate to the chaos patterns?
Like the Dharma Initiative ba gua, they used the King Wen version of sequencing in which each set of trigrams is followed by it opposite pair.
The I ching, or book of changes, is a record of how energy changes. . . particle/wave transitions/ways of being. Perhaps the swan station was in part used to moniter the enegy pattern of the unique EM field.
More on this later. Unfortunately gotta run. Real life calls. Keep up the good work y'all!
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Oh, one more thought on binary pairs. Station 3 required a partner. So the researchers were paired. Makes me wonder if the 40 year bodies of Adam and Eve were the first researchers on the island? Perhaps the station needs a yin/yang, male/female pairing? No wonder Desmond looked so crazy. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
More random thoughts before I rush out to work:
Kate,
The end of your Random Post number 2 (re the different projects at Hanso) did not show up on my screen, so I am wondering if you touched on Remote Viewing? Forgive me if you already mentioned it, but Walt's apparition might be explained if he is being held at the "Accelerated Remote Viewing Facility" and being forced/taught to do this since he is "special."
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
More random thoughts before I rush out to work:
Kate,
The end of your Random Post number 2 (re the different projects at Hanso) did not show up on my screen, so I am wondering if you touched on Remote Viewing? Forgive me if you already mentioned it, but Walt's apparition might be explained if he is being held at the "Accelerated Remote Viewing Facility" and being forced/taught to do this since he is "special."
I'm grabbing a few seconds where I can too src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
No, Aswinigirl, I didn't discuss the remote viewing facility in terms of chaos but sort of did in terms of EMF. I'm wondering if there was/is some research going on in the direction of manipulating the strength of the EMF to induce auditory and visual hallucinations. If so, then the operators would want to be remote. I like where your brain went!
The other reason I grabbed some time here is that I've been thinking about some of the posts concerning structuralism/binary oppositions. As with your Gleick Aswinigirl, I dusted off some of my sociology textbooks last evening and have found some interesting stuff on the social angle. Here's a short list :
-- Derrida's "theatre of cruelty"; logocentrism -- Foucault on the distinction between madness and sanity, and what constitutes each (Hurley thoughts); the relationship beween power and knowledge (I'm wondering if the Tail-enders are going to have an application here); medicine and how we gather info; the Panopticon! -- Jameson -- modern vs postmodern thought (Father Knows Best vs. Twin Peaks) -- Baudrillard -- the interplay of structuralism/poststructuralism, and modernism/postmodernism and how they each are seen in LOST (The Turning of the Screw/modernism vs. postmodernism (apparitionist vs. non-apparitionist controversy); The Third Policeman / postmodernism; Robert Anton Wilson/postmodernism) and the message the writers are trying to convey...
Any of you social theorists out there, thoughts please!
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Wow, great posts Back_gammon and Sayiditisntso.
Interesting connection to the black/white symbols, back gammon! The ultimate in dualistic thinking. Yikes. Thank goodness somebody realized no system is closed. Unfortunately for the Dharma Initiative, they may have realized this a little too late, eh . . the "incident."
The binary opposition also reminds me of yin/yang theory and the binary sequencing of the i ching.
In 1974 Dennis and Terence McKenna (binary set of brothers, one a scientist, the other a poet-philospher), wrote The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinations, and the I Ching. In an attempt to understand the neurobiological processes of the subjective experience of the mind, these two investigated the how shamanic use of psychedelics effected neurochemistry/biology. Using a deconstructionist shift of context, they found a pattern, or rhythm, moving through time. Kate, this may relate to the chaos patterns?
Like the Dharma Initiative ba gua, they used the King Wen version of sequencing in which each set of trigrams is followed by it opposite pair.
The I ching, or book of changes, is a record of how energy changes. . . particle/wave transitions/ways of being. Perhaps the swan station was in part used to moniter the enegy pattern of the unique EM field.
More on this later. Unfortunately gotta run. Real life calls. Keep up the good work y'all!
Great post -- I'll have to get a copy of that book. It definitely could relate to the chaos idea. Thx.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Did I mention my theory the island is inside a black Hole?... I am amazed at how revealing those producer/director quotes are ... people end up there but never to their knowledge ever leave, that sounds to me like a black hole reference ... Kate I am going on vacation for 2 days as well. I have this site bookmarked. I will bump it back to life if anyone forgets... but I think you have a group of awed followers who will never forget you... src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Thx for the potential bumps src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Hope you have a good vacation. I'm unlikely to have any more time for a few days, so I'll be dying to see what everyone's thinking, especially after tonight's episode. Happy hunting src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: nymischief (12 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 20, 2004
I like how you think! I think you are heading in the right direction. PLEASE look up the word "Jin" or "Jinn"....
I posted the following a couple of weeks ago....
I believe the installation that Desmond has been maintaining is part of a Particle Accelerator- dating from the mid-1970s (Apollo candy bar, record player, lava lamp, Apple computer, etc). Perhaps someone was trying to create anti-matter and atually succeeded. The rest of the station crew might have been killed from radiation from the experiment. Desmond might have been part of a "medical rescue" but arrived too late and the higher command deemed it too risky to retrieve him, instead they left him behind to maintain the site AND to continue the input of the numbers. Again- he was shown inputting the numbers and he forced Locke into punching the numbers into the computer at a specific time---as if the numbers were a failsafe to PROHIBIT a detonation of something. Also Particle accelerators use MAGNETS to accelerate atoms/particles over a large loop (10 to 20 miles of loop). A BIG loop would have all sorts of service tunnels to it!!!!! It is possible that the island was choosen for this use because of it's composition (ores?)..Maybe it is iron and the iron was magnetized and that CAUSED the passenger jet to crash and the drug runners to crash and the French research ship to wreck. Iron ore would also explain the reason for the ancient ship that was found- they were looking for iron for their own use!
by: intergalaticpurveyor (17 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 08, 2004
I agree with you that there are Quantum Theory aspects to this ...which of course explains the word Dharma from dictionary.com: Hinduism & Buddhism. The principle or law that orders the universe. Individual conduct in conformity with this principle. The essential function or nature of a thing. Hinduism. Individual obligation with respect to caste, social custom, civil law, and sacred law. Buddhism. The body of teachings expounded by the Buddha. Knowledge of or duty to undertake conduct set forth by the Buddha as a way to enlightenment. One of the basic, minute elements from which all things are made.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I like how you think! I think you are heading in the right direction. PLEASE look up the word "Jin" or "Jinn"....
I posted the following a couple of weeks ago....
I believe the installation that Desmond has been maintaining is part of a Particle Accelerator- dating from the mid-1970s (Apollo candy bar, record player, lava lamp, Apple computer, etc). Perhaps someone was trying to create anti-matter and atually succeeded. The rest of the station crew might have been killed from radiation from the experiment. Desmond might have been part of a "medical rescue" but arrived too late and the higher command deemed it too risky to retrieve him, instead they left him behind to maintain the site AND to continue the input of the numbers. Again- he was shown inputting the numbers and he forced Locke into punching the numbers into the computer at a specific time---as if the numbers were a failsafe to PROHIBIT a detonation of something. Also Particle accelerators use MAGNETS to accelerate atoms/particles over a large loop (10 to 20 miles of loop). A BIG loop would have all sorts of service tunnels to it!!!!! It is possible that the island was choosen for this use because of it's composition (ores?)..Maybe it is iron and the iron was magnetized and that CAUSED the passenger jet to crash and the drug runners to crash and the French research ship to wreck. Iron ore would also explain the reason for the ancient ship that was found- they were looking for iron for their own use!
eg. Fermilab?
The iron ore idea is really interesting... Great thinking src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
RANDOM POST NUMBER 1
-- Given all of the time differentiation and variables involved, I'm wondering if any of these things come into play in terms of those? Periodicity, Period three chaos, synchronicity, bifurcations, Butterfly effect,equilibrium -- anything applying to cyclical or tangential movements... Any thoughts ?
-- As far as the numbers are involved, one idea that's interesting to me is that they could be a sort of Feigenbaum's number type of thing. Could they represent a universal constant, either fictional or from real life, that the Hanso scientists discovered and applied broad-spectrum to their research? Are the survivors naturally attracted to it or artificially, a la a Manchurian candidate type of implantation? I've looked through some of the constants from real life but not many, and obviously have yet to find a match.
Wow Kate,
Your analysis of chaos theory and how it relates to Lost is fascinating. Unfortunately I am not as clear on some of it's more mathematical facets. Your question about periodicity made me revisit the ba gua symbol. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are two ways of depicting the 8 trigrams. The early arrangement (Fu Hsi) is based on pairing polar elemental opposites. . . heaven/earth, fire/water.
The later arrangement (King Wen) represents the law of periodicity. It depicts cycles and rhythms in nature, such as those of the changing seasons, and suggests the constant changing of all things. The King Wen Arrangement is considered the external manifestation of the cosmic order.
In The Invisible Landscape, the McKenna brothers found a three to one ratio of even to odd transitions. Does this relate to period three theorem? There is also an exclusion of fives. I may not understand the math, but intuitively feel there may be a connection to the 5 month shifts at the Swan station and the Discordian 5 symbolism with time?
In addition, the McKenna brothers relate the i ching to a lunar year (13 lunations per year 13 x 29.53 days = 383.89 days . . . 6 (number of lines) x 64 (number of trigrams) = 384). Apparently a very accurate calendar. . . that matches the mayan calendar endpoint.
Re: numbers as a universal constant. . . makes sense. . . probably fictional . . .as their meaning is yet to be discovered by some very smart fans. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> I too have have not yet figured this one out. . . or else it is so obvious that no one can see it.
I wonder if the writers know the answer to your question of natural vs. artificial attractor? I'm sure Locke would say natural and Jack artificial. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Reminded of an actual experiment from Energy Medicine by James Oschman:
"Over many years, Wever (1968) and colleagues at the Max Planck Institute in Germany observed hundreds of subjects who lived in two underground rooms that were shielded from external rhythms of light, temperature, sound, pressure, etc. One room also had an electromagnetic shield around it, consisting of a mesh of steel rods and plates that reduced the influence of geomagnetic rhythms by 99%. The rhythms of body temperature, sleep-walking, urinary excretion, and other physiological activities were monitored. All subjects developed longer and irregular or desynchronized or chaotic physiological rhythms. Those in the magnetically shielded room developed significantly longer and more irregular physiological rhythms. In some experiments, artificial electric and magnetic rhythms were pulsed into the shielding. Only one field had any effect: a very weak 10 Hz electric field. This field dramatically restored normal patterns to the biorhythm measurements."
Perhaps the sickness is not viral, but induced by the island's unique electromagnetic forces?
I wonder if the titanium wall mentioned tonight was to block external magnetic activity? Or just a heat resistant firewall (for geothermal activity. . . heating the shower/providing electricity?) Titanium is also a white pigment. . . in keeping with our binary, black/white symbolism. . . and the white swan. . . suggests there may also be a black swan station? I think the logo in the Ana-Lucia (light) bunker is different, but I have to check other posts to validate that.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Do you think there is possibly any value or insight to be gained in considering ABC's connection to Disney in terms of the direction the faith versus science questions in the show's plot may be heading?
Don't get met started on Disney. . . magic kingdom and mind-control factory run by the big I. BTW ABC logo is a black sun.
Right now the show seems to be playing off the tension between the faith and science. I hope they continue in that vein. . . I would be disappointed if it swung too far in either direction.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I'll throw this in the blender:
Can't remember the precise name of the theory, grad school was about 5 years ago, but I remember in a Chaos Theory seminar the Prof introduced the idea of "Archipelagoes of Thought" to further our discussion of random/non-random pattern.
Simply stated, "Archipelagoes of Thought" means that ideas come into many peoples minds at the same time all across the globe, even though they have never seen or heard of each other and may be separated by geography. For example, if Einstein had ben killed in a car crash, the theory of relativity would have still been "born" because someone somewhere else would have been thinking along the very same lines at the same moment in time.
A way to explain this phenomenon is a collective unconciousness (see Jung). A way to visualize this collective unconsciousness is to think of islands of an archipelago. An aerial photo would show islands, all separate with miles of water around them. But an underwater photo might reveal that all these islands are really connected below sea level and are part of one big mountain range.
Hence, the patterns you see depend on your perspective.
Another interesting idea posed by the Prof is that things in the physical world (example: airplane) cannot exist until the collective unconciousness is ready to collectively have the mental idea of an airplane. Thus, for example, if time travel were possible, and an airplane went back to the Roman Empire days, the airplane would cease to exist because the "collective mind" could not think it into reality.
Blending away:
Sounds a little like 100th monkey theory. First the collective unconscious is ready, it manifests in one, and by the 100th all get it. . . . viruses mutate this way too. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Reminds me of the story about the natives who did not see Christopher Columbus' ships in the harbor because they had no reference for that reality. Makes me wonder what we may be missing each day. . . perspective and vision are not necessary one, eh.
Wonder what our collective unconscious will inspire Lost's writers to create? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
How fun that your grandfather left you that wonderful book!
Other esoteric traditions associate 9 as a magical number because any number added to it will always be reduced to itself, ie. 9 + 4 = 13 1+3 = 4
Sometimes secret societies produce printed works that are full of disinformation. Or in this case, the interpretation may be due to the time period or particular philosophical tradition (and there were many in the 1800s).
Sometimes numbers associated with women (9 = 9 months gestation, 13 = number of lunations/menstrual cycles per year) were interpreted in Victorian society as negative.
In numerological traditions 23 reduces to a 5. Five has the following qualities: adventure, change, freedom, exploration, variety, sensuality, unattached, curious, experienced, periodicity, knowledge seeker, knowledge teacher, traveler, imagination
Interesting that when Locke put in the code he mistakenly typed 32 instead of 42. . . 32 being the reverse of 23.
The fish symbol is interesting. . . odious like a sickness?
In the first, Mesmer is villified as a quack because he was odd and wore a Rosicrucian's robe. . . Ben Franklin, Freemason -- (not the nice guy history makes him out to be. . . check out a recent discovery of at least 10 corpses under his residence attributed to medical ummm research), discreted Mesmer's work.
In addition to trauma and external stimulation, brainwave activity on the right temporal lobe can be stimulated naturally. There has been research that maps the brain wave patterns of meditators, healers, and buddhist monks. . . all show high alpha activity in the right brain. . . go figure.
In chinese medical thought, the heart is the seat of the mind. And the heart emits the largest electromagnetic field on the body. It is also filled with neurotransmitters such as dopamine. . . where does thought/memory reside. See Candace Pert's (she was in What the Bleep) and Molecules of Emotion.
Kate, as you so eloquently implied, a reason that Chaos theory, quantum mechanics and taoist theory are so sympathetic is the underlying assumption that everything is connected and related. As above, so below. Microcosm must mirror the macrocosm.
Okay, I need to rest for now. I look forward to your return and a whole new round of research topics!
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
RANDOM POST NUMBER 2
Following are applications of chaos theory for each of the Hanso projects...
I. Life Extension: Chaos theory is used in medicine to study epilepsy, heart attacks, neurology, otolaryngology, viruses, cancer, and in alternative medicine the self-healing mechanisms of the body. Unpredictable events in medicine, such as the fluctuations or frequency in some diseases or the course of certain cancers, may be attributable to chaos theory. A better understanding of physical issues cam lead to cures/prevention which increases longevity hence life extension. (illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality)
II. Electromagnetic Research: This can apply to physiological areas as well as quantum mechanics. Like the ancient alchemists, chaos theorists can study the healing possibilities and affect of electromagnetic fields on the body?s systems. Magnets are in the category of "attractors" in chaos theory http://www.schuelers.com/ChaosPsyche/part_1_6.htm , and the earth's magnetic field has been found to affect the seemingly chaotic migratory patterns of birds, bee, butterflies, and possibly even people. At the quantum level, chaos has been investigated at a quantum level by applying a magnetic field to the atom. (illuminati connecting idea=magnetic healing/cosmology)
III. Extra-terrestrial Intelligence: Belief in extraterrestrial life was present in ancient times, but in the form of cosmology rather than "aliens" as we usually think of it today. Whether this is referring to actual aliens or simply any intelligence not located on Earth is unclear. If the reference is to aliens, then there are chaos theory applications in communication systems and radio waves in the vein of Nasa's SETI program. It can be applied to the entire solar system in terms of intergalactic dynamics (Poincare). If the reference is cosmological, the existence of some divine "intelligent" mechanism behind everything like a god or gods, then chaos theory could explain in natural terms occurrences which have been previously attributed to this mechanism by some. There are some mysterious crop circle formations that resemble "Julia sets" in chaos theory. I think that since the writers want to steer away from an alien explanation, and to be consistent with the ancient alchemist's studies, it may refer to extraterrestrial physics and spirituality along the vein of this site à http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:l7r6hGhE5KUJ:ascension2000.com/ConvergenceIII/+chaos+theory+extraterrestrial&hl=en&client=firefox-a (illuminati connecting idea=cosmology)
IV. Mathematical Forecasting: This one is easy to connect because chaos theory is a subcategory of mathematics and is rooted in meteorology à http://pear.math.pitt.edu/mathzilla/Examples/chaos/studentReports/DanielAnderson.html . Because the Hanso film mentions meteorology as an area of study, we can assume that is what they are doing in this project. However, chaos theory can be used to create mathematical models which can then be used to make forecasts about all kinds of systems such as financial markets, warfare, urban development, epidemics, etc. Chaos is actually a subcategory of the mathematics field, so it's easy to connect this project to it. Basically it can make sense of systems that appear on their face to have none, and increase the accuracy of shorter range predictions, but because chaos increases with time it isn't effective for long-term predictions. The predictability of complex systems is limited. (illuminati connecting idea=astrology/predicting the future)
V. Cryogenics: (the name Kelvin pops up in this area) A branch of quantum physics, it is the study of how to get to low temperatures and how atoms behave once they get there. We can probably assume they mean cryogenics in terms of the human body even though it can be applied to lots of things because it would fit in with the longevity/immortality goal. Because the body is made of atoms, understanding how the body's structures are affected by extremely low temperatures is important to this research. Blood vessels, the circulatory system, lungs, muscle tissue, practically the entire body -- all of these are fractal structures. Fractals are an important part of the geometry of chaos theory. (illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality)
VI. Juxtapositional Eugenics: Obviously, chaos theory can also be used to study genes, chromosomes and DNA in terms of the way these cells replicate and behave, their stability and instability, and how they evolve over time and handle changes. It can be used to study the initial conditions of our genetics and conception as they affect our consciousness and development, and what happens when those initial conditions are altered. Eugenics is basically the idea of discarding inferior genetics for superior ones -- the heredity improvement of the human race. (see Francis Galton). Juxtapositional basically means "side by side", and I'm not sure exactly what this means in terms of the project.(illuminati connecting idea=longevity/immortality/human transcendence)
-- Chaos can pretty much be applied to every other area as well -- consciousness, neural networks, sociology, psychology, group dynamics, etc., so for the larger scope experiment Hanso mentions -- including the whole utopian social research community and probably including the remote viewing training facility -- it can also be studied.
I've had a little more time this week to explore the different Hanso projects and how they may be hinted at in the symbols used by the writers. Here are some more thoughts to add to the list:
Hanso Foundation: Although Alvar Hanso made his mark as a munitions supplier in WWII, he now heads this corporation whose mission statement includes: "The Hanso Foundation stands at the vanguard of social and scientific research for the advancement of the human race." Is that why the bunker is loaded with guns?
I. Life Extension: Alchemical symbols (Ba gua, black/white, swan, double headed phoenix/eagle). Is Hanso an alchemical corporation? The main goal of alchemy is immortality. Internal alchemy uses meditation and yogic practices, external alchemy uses drugs. In the Orientation video, Hanso appears to be dedicated to innovative science projects that may be considered alternative to mainstream science. They seem to be humanitarian.
Hanso may also have a connection to swan symbol. . . sanskrit "hamsa" enlightened one. . . an "alvar" is one of 12 realized souls from birth. . . a sort of saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alwars
II. Electromagnetic Research: The swan station has a unique electromagnetic property that was the center of its research. Geophysical properties, such as iron ore or thermal springs, can effect EMFs. The heat under the bunker may be coming from geothermal activity, or radiation poisoning (Chernobly reference). We still do not know what exactly what Hanso's research was/is. The new bunker has an arrow, symbolic of a compass?, instead of a swan pointing to it's EM connection. The sickness may be from the highly unusual EM fields. ELFs can effect consciousness, cellular growth, navigation, and possibly time.
III ETI. Can't go there right now. Not enough evidence that the writers want to either.
IV. Mathematical Forecasting. You've already done a great job bringing in chaos theory. The numbers may play a role in forecasting as they have played a role in the character's past.
Meteorology not only has roots in mathematics, but also EM. . . especially the idea of weather manipulation, very popular in the 70s conspiracy crowd (and today too). see Hoagland on Hyperdimensional huuricane patterns: http://www.enterprisemission.com/hurricane1.htm
V. Cryogenics (not to be confused with cryobiology). Good connection to the name Kelvin! I don't think it is the same as cryonics (freezing bodies). It may have more to do with superconductivity. Superconductivity is a phenomenon occurring in certain materials at low temperatures, characterised by the complete absence of electrical resistance and the damping of the interior magnetic field (Meissner effect). It is used in magnetic levitation. . . ie trains. Anyone else know more about this?
VI. Juxtapositional Eugenics (other posts point out JEDI). This project sounds a little scary. . . especially with the other's focus on abducting "special" children. Also the characters are also placed in "juxtapositional" pairing (for dynamic tension).
VII. Accelerated Remote Viewing. May also relate to swan symbol. . . Ingo Swann's research on RV and EMFs. Perhaps this is how Walt appears to Shannon. His special gift may be his ability to do RV? If Walt is a transmitter, Shannon, and even Hurley in dreamstate -- ie. milk carton photo, may be receivers. Could they all be RV receivers -- perhaps this is how the numbers get transmitted to the characters.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
reposting. . . it may be too long to fit in screen?
I've had a little more time this week to explore the different Hanso projects and how they may be hinted at in the symbols used by the writers. Here are some more thoughts to add to the list:
Hanso Foundation: Although Alvar Hanso made his mark as a munitions supplier in WWII, he now heads this corporation whose mission statement includes: "The Hanso Foundation stands at the vanguard of social and scientific research for the advancement of the human race." Is that why the bunker is loaded with guns?
I. Life Extension: Alchemical symbols (Ba gua, black/white, swan, double headed phoenix/eagle). Is Hanso an alchemical corporation? The main goal of alchemy is immortality. Internal alchemy uses meditation and yogic practices, external alchemy uses drugs. In the Orientation video, Hanso appears to be dedicated to innovative science projects that may be considered alternative to mainstream science. They seem to be humanitarian.
Hanso may also have a connection to swan symbol. . . sanskrit "hamsa" enlightened one. . . an "alvar" is one of 12 realized souls from birth. . . a sort of saint. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alwars
II. Electromagnetic Research: The swan station has a unique electromagnetic property that was the center of its research. Geophysical properties, such as iron ore or thermal springs, can effect EMFs. The heat under the bunker may be coming from geothermal activity, or radiation poisoning (Chernobly reference). We still do not know what exactly what Hanso's research was/is. The new bunker has an arrow, symbolic of a compass?, instead of a swan pointing to it's EM connection. The sickness may be from the highly unusual EM fields. ELFs can effect consciousness, cellular growth, navigation, and possibly time.
III ETI. Can't go there right now. Not enough evidence that the writers want to either.
IV. Mathematical Forecasting. You've already done a great job bringing in chaos theory. The numbers may play a role in forecasting as they have played a role in the character's past.
Meteorology not only has roots in mathematics, but also EM. . . especially the idea of weather manipulation, very popular in the 70s conspiracy crowd (and today too). see Hoagland on Hyperdimensional huuricane patterns: http://www.enterprisemission.com/hurricane1.htm
V. Cryogenics (not to be confused with cryobiology). Good connection to the name Kelvin! I don't think it is the same as cryonics (freezing bodies). It may have more to do with superconductivity. Superconductivity is a phenomenon occurring in certain materials at low temperatures, characterised by the complete absence of electrical resistance and the damping of the interior magnetic field (Meissner effect). It is used in magnetic levitation. . . ie trains. Anyone else know more about this?
VI. Juxtapositional Eugenics (other posts point out JEDI). This project sounds a little scary. . . especially with the other's focus on abducting "special" children. Also the characters are also placed in "juxtapositional" pairing (for dynamic tension).
VII. Accelerated Remote Viewing. May also relate to swan symbol. . . Ingo Swann's research on RV and EMFs. Perhaps this is how Walt appears to Shannon. His special gift may be his ability to do RV? If Walt is a transmitter, Shannon, and even Hurley in dreamstate -- ie. milk carton photo, may be receivers. Could they all be RV receivers -- perhaps this is how the numbers get transmitted to the characters.
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
bump
Kate thanks I am not worthy you're so smart. Interesting that this group hasn't commented on the latest show, perhaps so far advanced of the story line and so aware of Quantum T. it's going to take a while for the show to catch up src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> The 23 other people from Back Of Plane (the BOP-ers) seem to have found an entirely different research station on this island. My TV was too dark to see anything. Hurley's dream that things are gonna change. Well we know that already.... src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> You all noticed that there were 23 survived from the back of the plane, right.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Okay, I've finally got a little time here... You've been busy, Aswinigirl. I'll have to read all your posts in-depth before replying. It's funny, I've been going on my own little knowledge search and it appears that you have too, and we arrived at a couple of the same places only by different routes. Pretty cool. You'll see what I mean in a sec.
I'm going to divide my post up since it does appear that length sometimes makes the ends fail to appear. Here goes... as usual all fun hypothetical exploration here...
1. Electromagnetism Research (EMF's, cryogenics): After Wednesday's episode I was pretty excited because it could be a nod in the direction of chaos theory. As I mentioned in my previous post, chaos theory has been investigated at a quantum level by applying a magnetic field to the atom and observing the behavior of electrons around the nucleus. Cut and Paste from earlier post...
"I'm wondering if they were trying to do research specifically on nonequilibrium dynamic systems. If so, they would have a reason to want to keep whatever it is in a chaotic state and prevent equilibrium from occurring. I've been reading about experiments on these online, and it seems that in some, researchers have been able to use an electromagnetic field and by controlling its strength or weakness they can create deliberate chaos/nonequilibrium in a system. Then they basically have control of the system in a sense, because they can either increase or decrease the strength of the field at will. Also, by preventing entropy, they can better study the patterns and behaviors of the variables."
This kind of research is done with a particle accelerator, but I was only familiar with the one at Fermilab which is gigantic (I actually mentioned it before waaaay back in the thread). Nymischief also referred to a giant particle accelerator in his/her post, so I was doubtful that it could be that because they're just too huge to be feasible. Or so I thought. I started wondering what else could be dangerous and also would need all those pipes and create all of that heat and condensation. I had read somewhere in my chaos research about a Heisenberg magnet so I decided to find out what that was exactly, and started a Google journey (lots of those lately). Lo and behold, I learned that particle accelerators can be all different sizes (duh. So basically now I believe it likely that the thing behind the wall is a large mechanism of this type (cyclotron? Superconductor motor?) using an atypical organic superconductor. Here's why:
-- Superconductors are materials that have no resistence to electrical current. They can be turned into electromagnets by sending an electrical current through them. Particle accelerators use these electromagnets to subject atoms to a magnetic field at very low (cryogenic) temperatures, causing the atoms to accelerate and become trapped in an orbital trajectory caused by the force of the electromagnets. They can then be observed. There are different types of superconductors -- Type I, Type II, and Atypical (organic) superconductors. I believe that the type in the hatch mechanism could possibly be the third kind because of this screencap ... http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=39&id=NONAME_007_000_101.jpg
But I don't know. It looks like a model of a molecular magnet (which is an atypical semiconductor) suspended via the Meissner effect with two quadruples on either side for flux pinning to prevent flux creep. (A mouthful I know, just Google it all.). Even if this superconductor isn't the one they're using, the screencap shows they were interested in them. -- Particle accelerators can create extremely strong magnetic fields. Some types of molecular magnets and other super conducting magnets retain their magnetism even after the accelerator is turned off. -- Superconductors only work at extremely low cryogenic temperatures (thank you Kelvin J) so that could tie in the Cryogenic research. -- Particle accelerators must be kept cool and so have cooling systems to remove the heat generated by the magnets (the hot pipes). -- They also have vacuum systems to remove air and dust from the tube of the accelerator (the other pipes). -- They have computer/electronic systems to control the operation of the accelerator and analyze the data from the experiments (the control room). -- They require shielding which protects the operators, technicians and public from the radiation generated by the experiments -- they are often constructed in concrete tunnels underground. -- They need close monitoring (see my theory in my recent post about why they might need human input) -- There are different kinds of accelerators, linear, circular... I like idea of a circular one (Cyclotron) for a reason I'll get to in my next post. -- P, D, S-waves -- Here is an excellent link with everything you need to know about particle accelerators. Please check out the SLD graphic under the Magnets, Targets, and Detectors section... it looks a lot like the hatch symbol. http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom-smasher.htm
-- Interesting notes: Molecular magnets are atypical organic superconductors. Some of this group are based on compounds centered around the "Fullerene". The fullerene name comes from the late designer-author Buckminster Fuller. Fuller was the inventor of the geodesic dome, a structure with a soccer ball shape. (discovered in 1985). The First organic superconductor--1980 -- discovered by a Danish researcher assisted by a French team. The Heisenberg magnet is a molecular magnet. (Heisenberg of the chaos-related uncertainty principle) -- If it isn't a particle accelerator, it could be a mechanism used to generate a super strong magnetic field. This is what is used for the Maglev trains. It could also be (doubtful) something like an MRI, or a superconducting motor.
-- Finally, this brings me to thallium poisoning. Thallium is a radioactive material used by some particle accelerators. It is extremely toxic and accumulates over time. It can be accidentally ingested orally, come into contact with if it seeps into groundwater (the hatch is pretty wet) or it can be inhaled. Could thallium poisoning be the "incident" that required Hanso to change protocol and require a manual input? Thallium poisoning, depending on level and duration of exposure, can cause vomiting, alopecia, neurologic and psychic symptoms, (ataxia, restlessness, delirium, hallucinations, semicoma, blindness, depression, dementia, psychosis), convulsions,liver and kidney damage, and death. It can accumulate in the body over time, with symptoms beginning usually about 3 weeks after exposure. So it makes you pretty darn sick.
Let's say, hypothetically, you have two operators of the particle accelerator at the Swan station accidentally exposed to thallium. They could be getting sick and not even realize why. Instead of leaving they could become delirious and start hallucinating, and in their restlessness and misery decide to paint a mural. They could paint the numbers associated with their research, they could paint an eye because they're having vision problems, they could paint people in distress, a representation of their utopian research community... and it probably wouldn't be a very good painting either. Maybe they die and it takes weeks for Hanso to discover them, and when they do they think the situation is isolated. They contain it, and install new operators with a new protocol so it doesn't happen again. Maybe they are in charge of cooling the accelerator every 108 minutes. They don't realize that the thallium, if airborne or in the groundwater, can cause severe birth defects and anomalies in anything/anyone living nearby or being created in the Eugenics lab or Life Extension lab, so there?s a ripple effect with the real consequences being delayed... Tons of holes here, but it could be a vaguely possible scenario. The antidote to thallium is Prussian blue. Maybe that's what's in Desmond's serum? And could Rousseau have been part of the team at the time, maybe somewhere remote that required a boat (Remote viewing maybe?) and come to the island because they recognized the numbers as sort of a distress signal, and then got stuck on the island where everyone started getting sick? So... anyone know if particle accelerators can overheat and explode? Did anyone notice that when Desmond first feels the hatch explosion, he goes over the the computer and it sounds like he shuts something down? Ideas? Thoughts?
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Okay, second post...
2. Symbology:
-- SPIRALS: Since we've been discussing chaos/complexity theory, I first want to make note of a supporting symbol that has been appearing in Lost. Wednesday's episode added two new ones to the list, so I want to go ahead and list them all. Basically, the symbol is the spiral/concentric circle (golden spiral). We've been talking about it mainly in terms of strange attractors (eg magnets) and the path of variables around them, but it also is echoed in the cosmos and in real life all over the place -- nautilus shells, hurricane patterns, the milky way, DNA strands, fractals (chaos), tornados, jet engines, the motion of atomic particles in a Cyclotron, whirlpools, and countless other places. Tying in the alchemy theme (and supporting our theory of a physical/metaphysical synthesis), the spiral is probably the oldest symbol of human spirituality. It has been found scratched into rocks from thousands of years ago, on every continent in the world. The religious significance can only be guessed, but it has been found on tombs, and possibly has a connection with the sun- the sun makes a spiral shape every three months in its travels. Anthropologists say the spiral is the ancient symbol for the labyrinth, the twisted pathway for a journey to the core of being It is also very closely associated with the I Ching -- see here...http://www.ichingwisdom.com/IChingWisdom/zodiac.html ... which we have been discussing from the beginning. There are many, many other examples of alchemical appearances of the spiral/concentric circle. (see sacred geometry... http://www.rotten.com/library/occult/sacred-geometry/)
****This link here is the best one I've seen yet (even though it's geared towards art to summarize the ideas we seem to be seeing in Lost... I couldn't possibly put it better... http://www.whidbey.com/parrott/fractals.htm*** Please take a look!
Appearance of the spiral/concentric circle in Lost:
-- the Hanso/Dharma symbol -- the centers of the o's in the Apollo bars -- the Oceanic logo -- on the bookshelf in the Degroots' office...http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=39&id=NONAME_007_000_093.jpg -- the motion of a moth towards light (episode 7, when it leads them to a way out of the cave-in, which is when I first started thinking about chaos theory as a possibility) -- in Mr. Clucky's (or whatever it?s calledJ)
***Any others you can think of???
-- APOLLO: Since Wednesday's episode when we got a second (clear) hatch symbol, I've been looking into Apollo more. It's hard to tell what's important and what isn't in this show, but the arrow made me think more about this because, like the swan, it is a symbol of Apollo. So what if we go in this direction with it for a moment rather than the swan as a Chinese symbol. Put that together with the bars and the sun, also a symbol of Apollo, and it seems like it could be a pretty important hint. I'm wondering if the other hatches will also have Apollo symbols in their centers?
Aswinigirl, here is a cut and paste from one of your posts on this...
"The name Apollo is an interesting choice of candy. . . and there are lots of images of the sun in the bunker . . ie the Sun painted on the wall mural is filled with the number 108 . . . and two mysterious arrows. In Greek mythology the arrows of the sun god Apollo invariably killed, and the Greeks explained epidemics of diseases by supposing that the gods were shooting their arrows at people; and so, by praying to Apollo, the epidemic might be made to stop. In this way, Apollo became associated with the cure of diseases. I wonder if this candy bar is an arrow filled with disease or a cure? Apollo is also know as the god of order, in opposition to Dionysus, god of chaos. Man of Science/Man of Faith polarities."
Great stuff!!!
Here is some more about Apollo (thank you Google!): -- god of prophecy, music, medicine, and poetry, sometimes identified with the sun. -- Apollo was the god of music (golden lyre) and poetry. This is why he presided on Helicon, over the Muses Games. -- He was the god of augury. They believed that he inspired both seers and poets. -- He was the god of truth -- He was a pastoral god and related to greenery and nature because of his affairs with the nymphs, young men and women who had been transformed into flowers. -- He was a warrior and with his golden arrows could gain his revenge from a distance. -- The holy animals which were dedicated to Apollo were the wolf and the deer. -- Birds that were dedicated to him were the swan, vulture and crow, from which people received messages. -- Finally, from the sea they were the dolphin, whose name reminded people of Delphi, the most significant temple of Apollo. -- The laurel was the main holy plant of the god. -- Apollo was the embodiment of light and the sun. -- He represents crafts, music and poetry, which the ancient Greeks worshipped and cultivated. -- Apollo was leader of the seven muses (or three, or nine), the Greek goddesses who presided over the arts and sciences. (one is named Thallia -- same root as Thallium?)
*** Other Apollo symbols, anyone?
-- And the most potentially significant thing I found out about Apollo is that there is a myth that he was carried after his birth immediately after his birth Apollo was transferred by the seven swans to their land, the Hyperboreans, which was situated by the Ocean. There they established their devotion to the god which they celebrated without interruption. Apollo remained at the land of the Hyperboreans for a year and returned to Greece in the middle of summer . Every winter thereafter he returned to Hyperborea.
SO... I wondered, could the island possibly be Hyperborea? Even though I've been trying to focus on the forest and not the trees (the seabed rather than the archipelagoes -- thx back gammonJ), and so haven't though much about where the island is, what I found out is pretty darn interesting. I definitely think that Hyperborea could be a candidate for the island, or at least its namesake since Hanso likes symbols-- it's the first promising possibility I've found so far. Granted there are many ways it does not work as the Lost island, but basically the location's right (if it?s in the East Indies), the alchemical myth and mystique is perfect, no one has ever found it to put it on a map which could fit an island that's been around for millenia that no one has ever successfully left, the Apollo connection is there, it is a science fiction (and comic book) favorite which would seem to mesh with the writers? interests, it has connections with other mystical islands/utopian colonies, the writers have hinted that the island they?re on may already have a name... I don't think I can distill things myself, so everyone read about it yourselves. Even if it amounts to nothing, it's fun to learn about. Here are some links.
(Aswinigirl in the last link you'll find yet another weird echo of some of the research you did.)
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Kate thanks I am not worthy you're so smart. Interesting that this group hasn't commented on the latest show, perhaps so far advanced of the story line and so aware of Quantum T. it's going to take a while for the show to catch up src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> The 23 other people from Back Of Plane (the BOP-ers) seem to have found an entirely different research station on this island. My TV was too dark to see anything. Hurley's dream that things are gonna change. Well we know that already.... src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> You all noticed that there were 23 survived from the back of the plane, right.
You're funny. I'm definitely not MENSA material, trust me src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> There are lots of smart people on this thread. We're just having fun with all of the possibilities -- I think we know there's no way we could guess what the writers have in store for us. That's why it's fun src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I've been thinking about your mantra idea. I seem to remember reading somewhere a theory that there are digital codes built into our DNA that affect our consciousness and that we recognize on a subconscious level. I will have to investigate, but I'm wondering if the mantra idea could play into the area of quantum consciousness. Do you know more about this area?
Also, I've thought about your black hole theory but I can't quite figure out how that would work, per the writers, without bending space and time. Could you explain a little more what you're thinking with this -- if you get a chance that is.
Thx for the bump src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: tat2me1960 (4 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 15, 2005
WOW...I think I'm in love. <awww...shucks> You beat me to the punch on the Toaist trigram theory, and I find it AMAZING that you make the same Toaism/Quantum connection that I do...actually, noticed that connection when I first studied Toaism, and it's interesting to see it put into use in LOST.
I enjoyed aswinigirl's contribution, as well...and her observtions about the swan make sense, and better fit the scenario.
Thanks to BOTH of you for some awesome and insightful reading.
by: back_gammon (1630 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
it's fun to learn about
Indeed it is!
I've been reading all your posts and everyone has a lot of great ideas. As always, it's an honor to post on this thread because there are so many good thinkers here.
I had a thought or two and, if I may, I wanted to post for some feedback before going further. I've been puzzling over all the thousands of different parts to consider, trying to arrive at some reasonable criteria for evaluating emerging patterns. Moreover, I wandered off to research heavy water and its implied alternative applications for nuclear reactors for a while, got a huge headache - and then I decided to take an abrupt change in course. Instead of a bottom up inductive approach, splitting, I decided to go top down, deductive, lumping.
Which took me to Alvar Hanso. He's an aging billionaire. What would an aging billionaire want? Why would he choose to fund some projects and not others?
One obvious answer is he doesn't want to die - does anyone? He wants to be immortal, not in the sense of leaving a legacy, but perhaps in the most concrete, physical sense - or in the sense of a continuing consciousness.
With this preliminary hypothesis in place, and with the idea that the clue to discovering the exact nature of the Dharma Initiative's work on the island lies in what Hanso might have wanted, I began a search for data that would confirm or disprove the notion.
As I began to search, a very large pattern hit me with a blinding flash. It was just there all at once. Over the years I've learned that these blinding flashes can be bits of inspired thinking, or just a foolish leap to wild conclusions, or sometimes an indication of where to narrow a focus for further research and perhaps the discovery of a better hypothesis.
So here goes. The Hanso Immortality Hypothesis
Black and whitesignifies death. At various times and in various cultures black and white links with death both connotatively and denotatively. Clues given in Lost - too many to list.
Dharma - Yama is the Lord of Death. Clues given in Lost - name of the project and other references to Eastern philosophy too numerous to list. Greek and Roman Gods were all immortal. Clues given in Lost - numerous references including possibly the names/connections to the individual hatches, [Alchemy - leads to Panacea - the search for a remedy that supposedly would cure all diseases and prolong life indefinitely. (Gunpowder was said to have been invented by Chinese alchemists, in pursuit of immortality). Clues given in Lost - implied mining projects on the island and possibly connected to Australia gold rush; guns, guns, guns, gun powder; dynamite; Sun's search for herbal medicines.
Quantum Immortality woah! dude! Clues given in Lost - "Quarantine" Greg Egan's first novel, explores topics related to quantum immortality.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Kate your research and theory building is phenomenal!! How does your backround in sociology explain your technical mind? You go gurl!! Although I need some more time to digest your recent updates, here are just a few initial comments:
The particle acelerator theory rocks. Did you notice the frame number on the still you chose from Orientation -- 203/23?
And your links to the octagonal structure is tickling my memory and I will have to go off and do more research. Why is this so addictive? There are many related symbolic meaning to octagon -- 8, 8 on its side is infinity, renewal -- baptismal fonts are usually designed in an octagon -- will look into this a little more -- it may relate to back gammon's alchemical immortality hypothesis.
Moreover, I love the link to "how stuff works". . . the image of the two gold beams in the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider looks remarkable like the first shot of the pilot, a closeup of Jack's pupil contracting in episode I.
Re: particle accelerators, explosions and black holes. . . just a quick search on google brought this article up:
The Thallium theory is also fascinating. . . what is prussian blue? It is also know as blue iron. . . hmmm. Oh and like the titanium, it is also a pigment. . . hmm.
Yay, another week of new topics to research. And Lost is on again tonight.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
In short, is this is a reasonable hypothesis and would it be productive to explore it further? What weaknesses do you see in the connections, logic, etc?
Hey Back gammon, glad to hear from you src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I love your train of thought and I think it's completely logical -- but I'm biased src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> If you look back at the very first few posts, you'll see that immortality has been part of the hypothetical direction of this thread from the get-go. Ancient chinese alchemy, and all of the other esoteric alchemical groups included in the so-called illuminati arena over time, have had goals that were twofold: 1. immortality (longevity, reincarnation, rejuvenation--the golden elixir) and (2) cosmology. Basically the theory has always been that there is some sort of an attempt at synthesis here between modern science and ancient alchemical goals and traditions. Over time we've been able to narrow things down but still have a ways to go. Hanso definitely seems to be aiming at pursuing and achieving the same goals as the ancients (believing that there is validity in these old beliefs) only via modern terminology and methods. It rocks that you've arrived at this idea independently!!! I like the gunpowder/mining connection you make a lot, as well as the Greek gods/immortality angle. I hadn't thought of that at all -- you've definitely found a lot of supporting info out there. If you go back and read the first page or two of the thread, you'll see how the alchemy angle came about, but I haven't really thought of it in light of new evidence. Hanso is ( or was) definitely out to find himself and the rest of the human race a way to transcend to the next level -- I think you're definitely right about that src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Anyway, with all of the chaos theory and EMF research, I'm basically trying to figure out which modern technologies exactly -- how would they have brought about the current Lost scenario in trying to achieve these alchemical goals? I've looked into the chaos stuff, and will probably next return to some more of the original directions listed (there were a bunch) and try to feel them out individually for possibilities. It seems like if you could take string theory, chaos theory, quantum alchemy, and nanotechnology all together you could explain virtually everything. Alas, I have a feeling that's not a possibility. Chaos seems promising right now because of its Taoism tie-ins, but you never know src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Anyway, great post -- I've been wondering if you know anything about some of the sociological areas I mentioned a few posts earlier. You seem to have a really great understanding of that area. And I really dug the "archipelagoes of thought" idea -- it keeps popping into my mind. I love learning all this cool stuff.
Thx for the addition -- I hope to hear more from you soon!
by: tat2me1960 (4 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Okay, the I-Ching says 42 means:
THE JUDGEMENT - increase. It furthers on to undertake something. It furthers on to cross the great water. THE IMAGE - Wind and thunder: the image of increase. Thus the superior man; If he sees good, he imitates it; If he has faults, he rids himself of them.
by: kateg468 (159 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Kate your research and theory building is phenomenal!! How does your backround in sociology explain your technical mind? You go gurl!! Although I need some more time to digest your recent updates, here are just a few initial comments:
Yay, another week of new topics to research. And Lost is on again tonight.
Thx src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> I think its more that I'm a research nerd than anything -- anyone could come up with this stuff. You've added more than I have to this thread for sure. Anyway, I'm on the board today for the first time in a few so I'm going to have to spend some time looking at your posts from when I was gone. You always have some good brain exercise in them for me src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Hopefully I'll find more time tomorro, been super busy lately -- glad you like the posts!
Like I say, even if we're totally wrong in the end, we got there in a totally enjoyable way. It should be funny to look back at some of these ideas at the end of the season when we know so much more -- I'm looking forward to it. And to Wednesday's episode.
...there are tons of episode-beginning eye shots. I'm sort of interested in quantum consciousness as the next research area because of the whole "eyes are the windows of the soul" thing. Know anything about it?
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Wow, you have been busy, Kate!
Good research on spirals/circles and Apollo. Here are some random thought. Sorry, not as organized as your thinking, but maybe it will provoke a few more discussions/research topics.
A difference between spirals and circles is in their geometry represented by different mathematic formulas such as the golden mean, fibonacci sequence, and pi
Aside: Has anyon ever seen the movie "Pi"? In black and white, the man character is mathematician looking for the patterns in a number. hmmm . . . I read another post of viewer that has a good synopsis of the movie. http://forums.go.com/abc/primetime/lost/thread?threadID=569983#6385393
A circle represents wholeness and eternity, whereas a spiral indicates a growth pattern (ie spiraling up of conscious, spiral found in natural forms). Check out golden proportion and 108. http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/misc/why108.html
The oceanic airlines logo is very similar to the object in the deGroot's bookcase. . . how did you see that to begin with!! Great eyes. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> There are 23 circles on the oceanic logo (if you count all the layers). . . it also looks like an eye. . . first image in Pilot. . . and some might say black hole.
The Lorenze attractor is also a repeated spiral or double -- an infinity sign. The sun, whose astrological symbol is a circle with a dot in the center, appears to make an infinity symbol in its analemma path. http://www.analemma.com/
Well done research on Apollo. (BTW aswini is a reference to the aswins, Vedic twin sons of the sun. It is an astrological reference to the 13'20" degrees of Aries . . . my astrological moon) . . . I've been wondering if the Apollo reference might be connected to the Apollo/Dionysis opposition found in Nietzche's Birth of Tragedy. . . ie. Jack vs. Locke . . . Locke vs. Rousseau. . . any philosopher out there want to comment?
Interesting connection to Thallia/Thallium!!!
Holy cow, bat gurl!! Really like the connection to Hyperborea!!! In addition, there is a lot of mythology that Hyperborea, the land in the north, is the location of the opening to the center of the earth!! Oooo, the inner earth . . . yes, like Jules Verne and Land of the Lost. . . and there is belief that the earth contains an inner sun. . . hmmm. The Nazis looked for it (and some say found it), and today conspiracy-minded folks talk about it a a source for UFOs, home of Nordic ETs, reptilian illuminati etc. . . it is also the north pole. . . and a polar source of EM fields. . . you may be onto something!!!
by: back_gammon (1630 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Hey Kate468, thanks for the feedback. To answer your question about quantum consciousness, no I don't anything about it. I'll go back and re-read the earlier threads and do some exploring. So much to hold in my head all at once, and I get more attention deficit disordered by the day.
I love exploring and learning about so many things - and your thread is a treasure trove. I think education has to continue for an entire life time - maybe that's a sort of finite immortality, because once you stop learning, well...
Still, I'm also in search of a "practical in terms of show business" answer to what the heck is the Dharma Initiative question. I have to keep reminding myself that this is a tv show with a broad audience base and that the Dharma Initiative must ultimately be something that will be understood and enjoyed by general viewers, even while it offers intrigue and opportunities for intellectual exploration to us eggheads.
Some of the things that might appeal to a general viewer might include, as you've mentioned, cryonics - corpsicles if you will - time travel, other dimensions, and this other thing I've been digging up that has to do with teleportation and how it could connect to immortality. And I'm sure there's other things as well. I haven't been a so called general viewer for a long time - grad school does that to you - so I'm only speculating what might appeal.
Thanks again for the input. I'll be around as much as time allows.
PS I'm glad you liked the archipelagoes of thought - it has been very influential to my thinking processes.
by: tat2me1960 (4 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 15, 2005
Hey Kate, you seem like you're pretty up on the physics/metaphysics stuff. What do you know about the theory that once something comes into existence, it increases the probablility that that exact thing can come into existence a second time...and into infinity, in an upward spiral? If you know this crazy theory's name, let me know. Thanks! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Funny, but that's precisely the argument I use for LIFE existing elsewhere in this universe other than just on Earth, itself.
by: back_gammon (1630 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
Just took a real quick look at quantum consciousness and the idea holds a lot of merit. I hope to explore the idea further.
One thing that jumped out as I was taking that quick fly-over of quantum consciousness is the similarity of its underlying premise with Derrida's deconstruction theories. Derrida's theories (grossly simplified) point to the idea that texts (a text can be anything - a book, a culture, a tv show) and meaning are much more unstable than previously thought. At a certain point of analysis, all texts and meaning break down and become indeterminate, and that texts and meaning remain stable only for the briefest fragments of time, if at all. I take this as another example of archipelagoes of thought. Although most fields of study such as biology, quantum physics, literary theory, et al, can be seen as "distinct" fields, there is indeed an underlying mountain range of perhaps unconscious thought going on so that similar paradigms of thought tend to emerge at the conscious level across wildly diverse fields of inquiry and praxis.
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Another thought on Hyperborea. . . ancients also thought there were two. . . a northern and southern Hyperborea. . . the north related to Atlantis and the south to Lemeuria(Lemeuria thought to be in the south Pacific) . . . Perhaps our friends on Lost have found/are stranded in the southern Hyperborea . . . may explain the weird EM and Polar Bears!!!!!!
by: GenerationXer (103 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 22, 2005
I'm wondering if the mantra idea could play into the area of quantum consciousness. Do you know more about this area?...
Also, I've thought about your black hole theory but I can't quite figure out how that would work, per the writers, without bending space and time.
There is a whole book just on Mantra's and how word or thought repetition changes your life, but I cannot recall the name as I read it 10 yrs ago. You can probably find on many Zen Mediation books and sites Mantras are essentially repeated in meditation and prayer, cornerstone of many eastern religions, any many other religions, they are all about inner/upper transformation. Oh spiritually An arrow pointing up is a good sign of ascension or prayer as desmond says "lift if up in prayer"
Black Hole theme would be based on the observation that things seem to be sucked onto the island (planes from the sky, ships, people sailing around the world) and its a one-way ride. The writer's quoted comment on this site that people end up there but never getting out. Bending Space and time a little should be ok as Einstein says we all live in bent space. They could be on a Quantum Level that has black hole problems and you can't get out.
If its a black hole we should probably look at the star patterns for clues of where we are and the properties of light. If the writers have thought of that...
by: aswinigirl (74 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
more random thoughts:
Interesting connection of Quantum Consciousness to deconstructionism, back gammon. Sorta like Werner Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.
For me, the problem with Quantum Consciousness is the assumption that consciousness resides in the brain/nervous system. . . according to many ancient traditions (which seem to be sooo much wiser than "modern" man), the seat of consciousness/mind/soul is the heart. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> See work of Paul Pearsall, Heart's Code. http://www.ikosmos.com/wisdomeditions/essays/mw/bennett01.htm or the paintings of Alex Grey http://www.alexgrey.com/
And then there are those who would distinguish between mind (thinking) and consciousness.
Are you guys familar with Michael Talbot's Holographic Universe, or Rupert Sheldrakes Morphogenic Fields. . . these are popular topics in the energetic medicine field that search for an understanding of consciousness using a QM model. Our bodies may simply be a "holographic projection mechanism" . . . whose senses decode informational waves from other holographic patterns. So some characters/consciousness, such as Walt (or maybe all children?), are able to manifest their thoughts into a 3-D reality, ie. polar bear.
But then those polar bears could be from the Land of the Lost. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Re: The Symbol -->Taoism --> Quantum Theory as a direction
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6eunzDPHFwJ:www.latrobe.edu.au/asianstudies/Buddha/lectures/17.htm+buddhism+island+magical&hl=en&client=firefox-a
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