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(Date Posted:12/03/2005 15:50:57)
Re: Danielle's Map, the Lyrics and the FormulasreplyPosted: Dec04@ 12:27AMby:marbalbc(736 Posts in the last 90 days)Registered: Nov 04, 2004l Post Date July 17, 2005 I hope what I'm about to say makes sense. I've explained as best I can. We all know by now that some of the French lyrics to "La Mer" are written on Danielle's map. Below are those particular lyrics. As written on the map (upper right corner): LA MER (The sea)
QU'ON VOIT DANSER DE LONGS DES GOLFES CLAIRS (That one sees dancing along clear gulfs)
A DES REFLETS D'ARGENT (of silver reflections) This is accurate as per the actual song lyrics. Below are more lyrics as written on the map, above the island: A DES REFLECTS D'ARGENT..LA MER DES (of silver reflections...the sea of)
REFLECTS CHANGEANT (changing reflections) The above is also accurate to the song lyrics, and again, I have no issue with that. But what follows are not lyrics from the song! AU BORD DE L'A' TANG (at the edge of the ? )
UNE INTERNUITE? (Can't make the word out properly - a ? - nothing even close in my dictionary)
REGRET BLEUE (regretfully blue?) WHY are these words written on the map, and WHY are we being misled into thinking they are lyrics from the song? What do they mean? I think this is where we should be taking another look. I would like to draw your attention again to the first line. There is something I find a little suspicious about it. AU BORD DE L'A' TANG. If this is a proper phrase, it should be written AU BORD DE LA TANG. LA as one word, no apostrophe marks around the letter A. Now, remembering high school mathematics, I want you to take another look at this line on the map itself.http://www.lostlinks.net/images/oceanicmap.jpg(You may need to copy it to a photo program and enlarge and enhance the contrast). I want you to pay attention to the letter L in this phrase. The vertical stroke is not perpendicular to the horizontal stroke. It is angled. Here's what I think. To me, the ?L' looks like it's the mathematical symbol for an angle. The letter A which is shown in apostrophes, is the name of the angle, and Tang is short for tangente, which is French for tangent, which is a mathematical term. What we're looking for is not the English translation, but the meaning behind the mathematical phrase "Angle ?A' Tangent" or ?tangent of angle ?A'. It is written on the map as though it were song lyrics, and we fell for it, but they are NOT lyrics from the song. If you don't believe me, check the lyrics again here.http://www.lostlinks.net/lyrics.htmYou will not find those phrases in the song. I believe this entire stanza is a clue in connection with the mathematical formulas also written on the map. One word is blurred just enough so that you cannot make it out properly. It looks like "internite" or "internuite". If it is a mathematical term, you will not find it in a general French-English Dictionary, but will need a specialized mathematical dictionary to translate it. Unless we have a genuine French-speaking person on the boards who can figure out what this word is and what it means? Anyway, I'm no mathematician, and I'm not proposing to solve the equations or their meanings, but I do want to draw attention to those so-called lyrics and question the significance of the deviation from the song, and their possible meaning in relation to the formulas. Any thoughts? Any French mathematicians out there?
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(Date Posted:12/03/2005 15:51:37)
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 04:18 PM by: ordinary_bloke
Hi, Marbal.
Not French OR a mathematician, but I think you're right. It could be side of angle A tangent... We talked about it in this thread on the plot board a while back:
I think the line below it, and the two lines that seem identical in the water near the bottom are also interesting. Warning! Once you begin to doubt the map, EVERYTHING looks like a clue!!! That was my downfall
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 04:25 PM by: marbalbc
Thanks bloke. DARN! I thought I'd discovered something new. It's been bothering me for a while now and I've been trying to figure out how to put it into words.
I don't know what conclusions we can draw from it, but it's definitely something to keep in our minds when (if) we figure out what those equations mean.
Overall I don't doubt the map, just that one 'stanza' that we're supposed to think comes from the song. It's most definitely a clue, I'm sure of that, but what it means is a whole other ball game. And those math formulas.....*rolls eyes*
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 05:21 PM by: ordinary_bloke I know what you mean! Even if they give us the answer, I still wouldn't know what the question is
What do you think about those phrases in the lower left? It looks like she has written "Le long des golfes clairs" twice, one above the other with the number 39 kinda between them and farther to the left. Why twice? It seems almost as though it is a demarcation line of some sort between clear water and something else at that point?
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 06:16 PM by: 042078
Didn't A say that one of the biggest easter eggs we've been given are the maps? I'd say you are probably on to something, but I can't help you go anywhere with it, sorry. Tangents-math...not my thing.
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 06:22 PM by: MEandthesea Mar, Ada translated the song exactly for us in the episode titles thread the other day - did you see it? She said the song gives a clue about what Danielle and her team were doing there.
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 08:01 PM by: marbalbc
ME - I did see Ada's translation of the song, and it pretty much matches my translation and others I've seen. However, what I'm talking about here are the words written on the map itself, not the actual song. I'm not sure what the clue is in the lyrics though, unless it's this.
The 'lyrics' on the map, are not actually the song lyrics, although we've assumed all along that they are. I think this deviance may be a clue in itself to pay close attention to what's written.
Unfortunately, the fake lyrics on the map can't be translated properly. Partly because one word in particular is smudged just enough to be indecipherable and therefor untranslatable. (Internuite, Internite, Inteduite, Jnternuite, Jnternite?) Just like the formulas, we are not being allowed to see the whole.
The other reason is that one phrase is, in my opinion, partly mathematical, not words as we first think. It is not Au Bord de la Tang, it is written Au Bord de 'angle' 'A' Tang (short for tangente, which is French for tangent) No wonder Shannon was so frustrated trying to translate for Sayid!
I know I'm repeating myself, but I just want to be clear on what I'm trying to say. I really think it's important, I just don't know how. Something is afoot! But what?
POSTED: Jul 17 @ 09:43 PM by: ordinary_bloke
Something is afoot! But what?
Your line and the two lines below it could be an equation written in words that adds more meaning to the actual equations at the right. Quantion thought the French word that looks like bleus could actually be elev? (maybe refers to elevation?) and the 't' in regret seems to be a little disconnected, so it could be a variable. If you stare at it all long enough it kinda transmogrifies, but then you just have to stand back and ask yourself am I trying way too hard?
The bottom of the map says shifting sands.. does anyone think the island is slowly moving as why the tide came up so fast & washed the wreckage away?
POSTED: Jul 18 @ 12:41 AM by: marbalbc
Quantion thought the French word that looks like bleus could actually be eleve? (maybe refers to elevation?)
For a long time I thought the word was eleve, which means high, elevated, but there are no accent marks over the first and last 'e', which would be a requirement for that definition. Another definition is pupil. (No accent marks required on the 'e's.)
However, when I enlarged and adjusted the contrast on the map, the word is clearly 'bleue', the feminine form of 'bleu', so it is an adjective in reference to a feminine object, which I believe is that elusive 'internuite/internite/intednite or whatever that word is. That is driving me crazy. It's blurred for a reason that we are not to know yet.
As I said, overall I believe this stanza of fake lyrics is a huge clue, and directly relates to the formulas in some way.
As for why the phrase 'le long des golfes claires' is written twice with a 39 to the left of it - totally beyond me at this point. What I do notice is a change in the spelling of 'claires'. Where it is written twice, it is spelled with an 'e', which is also the spelling of Claire's name. In the song lyrics, and as it is written in the upper right corner, it is spelled without the 'e' - clairs. Maybe that's a clue. (With the ?e', it is the feminine adjective, without the ?e' it is masculine.)
I just noticed something else. "A des reflects d'argent". There is no letter 'c' in the french word for reflections. The word is 'reflets'. The 'c' is not supposed to be there, and it isn't there in the lyrics. Is that a clue, or did the person who drew up the map make a mistake? Another 'production error', or a deliberate clue?
does anyone think the island is slowly moving as why the tide came up so fast & washed the wreckage away?
I don't think the island is moving. That's not a theory I'm able to live with. But I do wonder why the 'shifting or moving sands' is shown on the map as being in the ocean itself, instead of on the beach of the island. Makes me wonder if there is another smaller sandy islet in the ocean? Could those waves shown below the phrase 'sables mouvants' not be ocean waves at all, but the type of waves you see in the sand, like in a desert? Sand dunes? OH gee - is this map drawn from a viewpoint from another island across the clear gulf, the shifting sands are the beach on another island?
POSTED: Jul 18 @ 08:21 AM by: ordinary_bloke
the word is clearly 'bleue' OK, then. If it is an equation written in words instead of symbols, we probably should be looking for words that are math processes, geometric terms, and real-world things that we can assign definite numbers to mostly? Elevation would have been nice, but even high place wouldn't have worked very well.
'internuite/internite/intednite or whatever that word is"
Can you morph it into any word that means an interval of time? The third symbolic equation looked a little like it might have a symbol for "small change in 't'" if you squint enough. lol
"The bottom of the map says shifting sands."
I'm not sure about the whole island moving. It seems like that would be well into science fiction, but you never know. I remember one epi vaguely, where one of the women (maybe Kate) is standing barefoot on lostie beach and she is slowly getting her feet buried by sand. She had some explanation for it, or at least said it had happened to her once before somewhere. I don't have any of this recorded. I thought once there might be large water intakes located near the bottom of the mountain, but that's pretty far-fetched too.
POSTED: Jul 18 @ 08:51 AM by: marbalbc
...and she is slowly getting her feet buried by sand
Yes, that was Kate. Her explanation was that as a child she and her mother would stand on the beach while the waves came in and washed the sand over their feet. Kate called it 'sinking'. Jack responded by asking if she was 'sinking her way off the island'. I don't know if it had a deeper meaning than that, but you never know with this show.
If it is an equation written in words instead of symbols,
I'm not sure it's an equation written in words, but I think it's pointing us to pay particular attention to something beside or at the edge of the tangent of angle A. Some sort of landmark maybe? And we come back to what were they measuring?
'internuite/internite/intednite or whatever that word is"
I only have the standard issue high-school type general French-English dictionary and I've looked at every word that might be a variation of what's written on the map. I couldn't see anything that might be it. I looked again today, and there is one possibility, albeit a slim one.
Intervertir - a verb meaning to invert the order of; to reverse. Perhaps the word on the map is some conjugation of the verb. The definition makes sense mathematically speaking. But I'm just guessing.
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POSTED: Jul 18 @ 10:12 AM by: diabolo237
I think you are really really on to something here. By her own admittance, Shannon says her french sucks, and she may have figured what she did understand from the map most closely resembled something that was familiar to her (since she had heard it "thousands" of times) and just assumed thats what it was. Thats why the calculations dont make sense, because what we think are lyrics are actually part of what makes the calculations workable. I love it marbalbc!!
POSTED: Jul 18 @ 12:58 PM by: ordinary_bloke
Wow, you really pulled that one from the bottom of the sack, Mar! You must speak French pretty well. What do you think they could be inverting (if that's what it is)? A couple of the equations define sides and angles of a right triangle. Triangulation and triangles come up often. I suppose they could be working with a 3D coordinate system of some kind. Inverting or transforming matrices and coordinates is about all I can think of that might involve right angles and tangents (circle kind).
It would be difficult to do this by hand one point at a time though. Do you think she has a laptop hidden in the hovel? Maybe she got it from the island pawnshop - give the island something and get something back. Here's Alex. lol
"The definition makes sense mathematically speaking."
What other invert/reverse operations do you have in mind? I heard some threads speculate that the equations might be working with volume or area which could be a coordinate system if you stretched it, but there is probably something else. I don't see how the rest of the equations would fit in, but I don't know much about it anyway. You need to run out in the street and wave math people in here!
Part of the lyrics talks about confusing the sea and sky. Do you think that has any special significance?
POSTED: Jul 18 @ 03:42 PM by: marbalbc
Inverting is a common mathematical operation when dealing with fractions, etc. But remember, it's only a guess that the word might be a variation of 'intervertir'. Intervertir is an irregular verb, which means the conjugations (past, present, future, first person, 2nd person, etc.) don't follow a standard rule. I wish I could say I spoke French well, but five years of high school French has only given me a basic understanding of French grammar and a handy dandy French-English dictionary to refer to.
IF that guess is correct, it could be a clue to invert the equations. BUT - it is just a guess.
You refer to the lyrics about 'confusing the sky with the sea' Well, if you invert the sea and the sky, then you have the sea on top, sky on bottom which would definitely lead to confusion. Does it mean anything? Who knows!
As far as what type of math equations or functions I have in mind, the answer would be NONE! You start talking numbers at me and my eyes glaze over, my brain goes into a deep fog and I'm gone. I know just enough to recognize the symbol for an angle, and to know that a tangent has something to do with angles, and a radian has something to do with angles within a circle or some such thing. If there are any mathematicians out there, they'll have to solve that riddle.
'tang' may be those things, but that's when used as an English word. I still think that it's an abbreviation for the French 'tangente' and goes along with what I'm convinced is "angle A", not L 'A'.
There is no French word 'tang' in my dictionary. If I look up the English word 'tang', the French word is 'odeur piquante', meaning 'pungent smell'. Hmmmm......lol
Of course, maybe they've mixed English in with the French. That may be one explanation for why they have a 'C' in the word 'REFLECTS'. If it's French, the word should be 'REFLETS', meaning reflections. Or it could be a 'production error', like those pesky pilot wings.
POSTED: Jul 19 @ 07:38 AM by: ordinary_bloke
"is this map drawn from a viewpoint from another island across the clear gulf, the shifting sands are the beach on another island?"
That's an interesting idea. You're thinking that the Lost area might be a chain of islands rather than a single, isolated one? I don't think we've ever seen those little islets things yet from lostie island. There must be an underwater ridge extending out from land with little pieces sticking above water. So it could be connecting something?
Another thread had me convinced that we are looking at the end of lostie island in this view, and the survivors are just on the other side. But I'm not sure anymore. It's maybe 3,000 meters high and 12+ Km wide at sea line? I still tend to think in feet so it doesn't seem so bad. But wouldn't that be approaching 10,000 feet and maybe 7-8 miles wide? Am I doing that wrong? Because that would be enormous. St. Helens is less than that. You can't just run up there in your street shoes with a bottle of water. That's a lotta lava - something that big would be hard to miss for sure. Do people on this board think it's hidden in some way, either by a natural phenomenon or by technology?
POSTED: Jul 19 @ 11:15 AM by: lovethatlost
Isn't the inverse of a triangle (think shape not math) a vortex? Shifting sands?
POSTED: Jul 19 @ 08:38 PM by: marbalbc
lovethatlost - I like what you're saying. Verrrry interesting. Shifting sands, through an 'hourglass', a sandy whirlpool, quicksand?
POSTED: Jul 19 @ 09:00 PM by: dhinged
It looks like the lyrics have been written over erased text. There's some smudging and faint lines surrounding it, like you'd expect from something being erased previously.
POSTED: Jul 19 @ 09:38 PM by: Adawhen
Great thread! WOW!
Do you think there could be clues there that haven't been noticed?! How cool. Those evil minxes, huh?
Shifting sands is indeed another name for quicksand, which is actually a very recent term.
Have fun, and great job!'
(A dances out to the Rev. Green)
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 09:05 AM by: marbalbc
okay, it's confirmed. I looked up the English 'quicksand' in my F/E dictionary, and it does indeed translate to 'sables mouvants'. The thing with French (and probably most languages) is that you can translate literally, word by word, and 'shifting sands' would be correct. But when taken as a phrase, 'sables mouvants' actually translates to 'quicksand'.
So the question again, why is quicksand shown on the map in what appears to be the ocean? Perhaps the view is not across an ocean, but across a desert? But then why a 'blue lagoon' or 'coral reefs'? Or perhaps these should also not be literal translations. Perhaps as a phrase they also have a different meaning.
And is this map a drawing of the LOST island, or is it another island as seen from LOST island?
And why are there no measurements on the LATITUDE scale - no latitude? Is this a further hint of what Chrissy said to Jack at the airport 'there is no latitude'?
And just what is that ball-thingy suspended in the sky over the island? I know this sounds wild, but is it the planet earth? I suppose it could be the moon. Are we even on the same planet, let alone the same island?
This is beginning to make my head hurt!
PS - Hello Ada! Glad you could drop in!
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 09:35 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Could the word per chance be Invariant?
I'm still on the kick that we're dealing with time travel, and the equations deal with time travel.
Like figuring out your spot in time/space, and its relationship to another objects spot in time/space...
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POSTED: Jul 20 @ 09:41 AM by: 042078
maybe they thought there was quicksand somewhere but in actuality it was another one of those holes that tried to suck Locke underground?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:00 AM by: marbalbc
Could the word per chance be Invariant?
That would have been an interesting choice, but no. A couple of the letters are blurry, but the ones that remain don't fit with 'invariant'
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:03 AM by: captainaeon
AU BORD DE L'A' TANG (at the edge of the ? ) UNE INTERNUITE? (Can't make the word out properly - a ? - nothing even close in my dictionary) REGRET BLEUE (regretfully blue?)
Playing around with the French dictionary. Wondering if in French poetry, the writer takes liberties with the language as the English do. Poetical phrases aren't always literal translations.
My ideas--
Is "tang" really etang, meaning pool? I know "nuite" is night. "regret" could be sorry. "bleue" I found used in the phrase "colere bleue" meaning violent anger, "bleue" meaning violent
So my pedestrian translation of the phrase--
At the edge of the pool in the night I am very sorry
I prefer your mathematical possibilities. But felt like playing.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:05 AM by: NoNicksinExile
not even invariable? (The french, at least according to babelfish...)
I'm still sticking with this time kick... wormhole. But I'm having a hard time finding the actual mathematics involved in wormholes... probably because it's complicated.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:09 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Does ?trou de ver' show up on the map at all? (sorry I don't have it in front of me, and my work blocks live journal so I can't see your link marb...)
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:26 AM by: ratchinka
I've been comparing the writing style and it is very consistent which helps when you are comparing letters. You've got photoshop stuff Nick? I usually brighten and contrast to kind of clarify things. I did it with the map and have tried like everyone to figure out the line starting with "Une" which the french edictionary didn't come up with anything. Anyway, I tried a different tactic and chose the "replace color", used the eyedroper and selected the pencil color. I darkened it and it looks like three words could be there. All letters have been capitals in the rest of the text, so why is there something that looks like a lower text r? It might be partnered with another erased line to make a letter or could it be equation letter? The letter that in the middle looks like either a D or the top of an R or could be a B? Darken text and let me know what you think.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:31 AM by: ordinary_bloke
And just what is that ball-thingy suspended in the sky over the island? I know this sounds wild, but is it the planet earth? I suppose it could be the moon. Are we even on the same planet, let alone the same island?
She put a lot of detail into it. It must be important to her in some way. Not really ball-shaped. It seems to have three prongs kinda curled up with each prong divided again into two parts? Hmm.. .by suspended do you mean stationary over one spot, or something else?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:33 AM by: ratchinka
oh also, the boat (epave' wreckage) looks to be the size of a yacht? It's wrecked somewhere on the beach and it's new so it probably hers, yes? probably already talked about hmm
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:33 AM by: marbalbc
Does ?trou de ver' show up on the map at all?
Not on this particular map. It's the one with the head on view of the island. I don't have a decent pic of the other maps, the ones that overlay each other.
Is "tang" really etang, meaning pool?
That is what first caught my attention captain. Because it was close to the song, I assumed it was the song, but the apostrophes around the 'a' confused me. Then, when I compared it to the lyrics, I realized it wasn't the lyrics at all, and I became suspicious.
AU BORD DE L'A' TANG (OH BORD DUH L-AY? TANG) If you take it as all words, "At the edge (side) of the pond." But then again, on the map 'tang' is a stand-alone word, which does not exist in the French language, unless it's an abbreviation for 'tangente', as I'm suggesting.
A play on words, meant to distract the casual viewer? I'm still convinced it's "at the edge (side) of tangent angle A", or however it would be read mathematically.
That entire stanza, as written on the map, is not from the song. It's designed to make us think it is. I really wish we could get to the bottom of the translation, but with the words deliberately blurred in some places, I don't think we can do it.
What are you using as your translator? The only definition I can find for 'bleue' is blue. If I look up violence or violent in the English portion of my dictionary, it translates to , well actually, the same spelling but different pronunciation.
so why is there something that looks like a lower text r?
yeah, I see that too. But can you see what the possible third word is, after what looks like lower case r? If you're right, then we have INTRr.....can you see what's next, or is it still blurred for you too?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:41 AM by: captainaeon
What are you using as your translator?
Larousse's French-English dictionary--Looked up "bleu", the phrase "colere bleue" (violent anger) was part of the definitions listed. (A case of the phrase's translation being different from the individual words.)
Could it be a poetry code that translates into a mathematical formula?
Maybe this is the key Brandon has?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 10:46 AM by: ratchinka
Could the r be an E? The eraser line is drug thru around there, but it does have a fairly dark line near the middle. The next two letters, the D, R, or B, looks like the next could be a U. Then there is a dot in the next space half up. Either it is part of letter or it's a dot. The next three are messy. The end is an E with a possible accent slanted the opposite way. What if the last two letters are both E's? If someone really knew french they could weed out the possibilities quicker. Hope you aren't as confused as I.
Know what else bugs me about that line? The first "letter" Not an S, possibly J but what it looks more like to me, is the number 5. There also seems to be different handwriting styles. The two sentences at the bottom are different. The G's are, the E's. Are there fake messages here?
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POSTED: Jul 20 @ 11:08 AM by: marbalbc
Could it be a poetry code that translates into a mathematical formula?
Maybe this is the key Brandon has?
I'm sure it's some kind of code for the math formulas. The key? Captain, your ideas on the key were already brilliant, but this one.....you could be right!
ratchinka - thanks for your contributions. I agree that several of the letters in that word could also be taken as something else. The first letter could definitely be a J, a bit of a stretch for a 5 or S, but not impossible. Small letter 'r'...two 'e's at the end, accented. But the most troubling part is the middle...I can see several possibilities. DNUTE, RNUITE, DNUITE, RMITE, RMUTE...
Someone earlier in the thread (was it you?) said it looked as though the words were written over previous writing, and I agree it does look that way. Could it mean that there is more than one person contributing? Or maybe Danielle got the maps from someone else and is altering them herself?
I don't have Photoshop, I have Adobe Photodeluxe, and it seems to be quite a limited program, or I haven't figured out it's intricacies yet. It came free software with my digital camera, so it's probably a very basic program.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 11:10 AM by: NoNicksinExile
The value for the tangent of angle A is defined as the value that you get when you divide the opposite side by the adjacent side. This can be written:
tan(A) = opposite / adjacent
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 11:20 AM by: nafoute
being French myself, here are the lyrics of the original song by Charles Trenet
La mer Qu'on voit danser le long des golfes clairs A des reflets d'argent La mer Des reflets changeants Sous la pluie
sables mouvants: quicksand, meaning you know, if you stand on this particular type of sand you go down "under" it
"In 1805, Meriwether Lewis and William Clark named a river on the south side of the Columbia River gorge the "Quicksand River." Their description of a wide, shallow river with a bed "formed entirely of quicksand," bears little resemblance to the narrow, moderately deep river we call today the Sandy River. What happened? The answer lay 50 miles away at Mount Hood. An eruption in the 1790's caused a tremendous amount of volcanic rock and sand to enter the Sandy River drainage. That sediment was still being flushed downstream when Lewis and Clark saw and named the river. Since 1806, the river has removed the excess sediment from its channel. The Toutle River in southwest Washington was similarly affected by the 1980 eruptions of Mount St. Helens."
I thought the sand of quicksand would have special properties such as size or mineral type, but an article said any sand can become "quick" if it is saturated with enough water to reduce the natural friction between grains. They gave an example of an underground spring welling up under a sandy area.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 02:11 PM by: a_c_b
Just a thought...what if BLEUE is actually BLEVE -- Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion -- "a BLEVE is the explosive release of expanding vapour and boiling liquid following the catastrophic failure of a pressure vessel holding a pressure liquefied gas such as propane or LPG. A BLEVE is the worst possible outcome when a propane or LPG tank is exposed to fire. BLEVE hazards include fireballs, blast, projectiles and possible toxic clouds or vapour cloud explosions. If you are a firefighter, emergency responder, plant safety professional, or a plant manager, you need to know what a BLEVE is and what it can do" --from http://www.business.inkingston.com/thermdyne/.
I realize that this acronym is based on English words, but it appears that it is also used in French, to describe this same phenomenon (I googled Toulouse BLEVE and came up with a number of reponses describing an explosion there in 2001).
A stretch, I know, but I thought I'd mention it.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 03:01 PM by: ratchinka
You just never know sometimes, it could be realevant. I've been trying fiters and sharpening to get another angle on the letters but all I've got is ?????????? I also ended up seeing a skull with sunglasses on some rocks......got to be a hallucination. But if you want to see it, it is on the rock at the base of the island on the left. It even looks happy..........
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 04:01 PM by: ordinary_bloke
The value for the tangent of angle A is defined as the value that you get when you divide the opposite side by the adjacent side. This can be written:
tan(A) = opposite / adjacent
That seems very reasonable. They are working with a right triangle and they used arc tangent (sort of the *inverse* function of tangent) to find angle of A. But they already know the length of all the sides and all the angles now, so it wouldn't add much. It would just describe what's there in symbols.
Tangent can also mean the point where a curve and a surface meet, like where a line touches the circumference of a circle. Doesn't have anything to do with triangles, but you could use it in conjunction with one, I suppose. In this show, when something has two meanings, you want to find the most obvious one - and then go with the other! LOL
Do you think it would be useful to trace the water flow on the island (where it's originating, where its going, dry beds, etc), and list all the unusual things happening in the water off the beach to see if there's some relationship?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 04:11 PM by: marbalbc
How exciting! We've managed to find ourselves a French translator! Welcome, Nafoute! Glad to have you aboard.
That's what I was saying, nafoute. L'A' TANG is meant to fool us into thinking it's l'etang (accent over the e). Which other words don't you understand, because I think they are also meant to confuse us the same way L'A' TANG does.
I have some slight variations on the other translations
I know it's rock under the *something*, but I haven't been able to read that last word clearly. It looks like 'aures' (accent over the e) to me, or 'allres', but it's too blurry. Nafoute, how did you know the word was 'alizes'? Also, does 'aures' or 'allres' make any sense?
bleu can mean "blue" (color), or a bruise
Nafoute, do the words 'regret bleue' or 'regret eleve' mean anything together as a phrase?
One thing that bugs me on that map is the math on the right that is next to the word radiance...
the arrows almost make it appear as if the math is being used to determine radiance... Radiance is electromagnetic energy...
If anything, the word could be 'radian', which is the same spelling in French and English, and is a mathematical term meaning A unit of angular measure equal to the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc equal in length to the radius of the circle, approximately 57°1744.6 (please don't ask me what that means, I may explode)
No no, I didn't mean the french word for electromagnetic energy... in English ?Radiance' = electromagnetic energy. At least one of it's definitions.
It seemed the most applicable to me based on Sayid's faulty compass.
BTW that thing in the sky... Could it be a meteor? Meteorite? (Which one is when it enters the atmosphere?)
It's right near the crater... So perhaps it's showing the trajectory of the meteor when it hit?
++++++
Heh... for that matter maybe thats what the math up there is talking about? Perhaps it's showing the flight path of the meteor?
Someone said Tangent can be used to show where a line hits a circle... Where the line of the meteor hit the orbit of the earth?
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 05:07 PM by: ratchinka
I have a question. Is the angle on the right represented by lines 98 x 36, an estimation of the height of the peak? Not a math person by any stretch.
POSTED: Jul 20 @ 06:00 PM by: marbalbc
No no, I didn't mean the french word for electromagnetic energy... in English Radiance = electromagnetic energy. At least one of it's definitions.
okay, gotcha Nick! I just wish it wasn't on the map as if it were a literal translation, when in fact it is someone's assumption. I looked up radiant and found the following definitions, also interesting
1. emitting energy in the form of electromagnetic waves
2. a point from which a meteor appears to proceed
3. a point which is a source of radiant energy
And ?yes' to your other question. My first assumption was that the circular object over the mountain was a meteor. And I wondered if they were calculating the angle of the meteor's descent, although I couldn't, and still don't, imagine why that would matter. Now take another look at definition 2 above!
Interestinger and interestinger!
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 07:40 AM by: NoNicksinExile
"Radiant is the point in the sky from where all meteors seem to radiate. The radiant of the Leonids is in the constellation Leo. The radiant is a perspective effect. All particles move in about the same orbit (roughly that of the comet). An observer in the middle of the stream sees the meteors fall left and right, above and behind him. However, they all seem to come from a certain direction. That direction is the radiant."
Could they be using it to determine where they are? If the radiant always appears to be from a certain direction?
...weird thought... if they went through a wormhole to another planet... Could they use the meteor's radiant to determine WHAT planet? or where the planet was located?
kind of off the wall but...
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 07:46 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Do you think the rubble that is labeled ?exposed face' might be left-overs from the top of the mountain? Maybe it means something slightly different than "not covered with vegetation". I could see how the rubble, crater, and roundish thingy might be in a line if you look at them just right.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 07:49 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Interesting thought... Maybe it means exposed to the blast?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 07:57 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Maybe it means exposed to the blast?
Exactly, but not a volcanic blast. I think the rubble looks different from that..
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 08:45 AM by: SmidgeInNH
Exactly, but not a volcanic blast. I think the rubble looks different from that..
Could it be rubble from mining? Sludge, that kind of thing?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 09:26 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Could it be rubble from mining? Sludge, that kind of thing?
I have to agree with mar and nonick that the drawing describes a meteor strike. Their research on the meaning of radiance is nothing short of brilliant. Very convincing. Mar's high school French dictionary must be smoking by now I want one of those!
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 09:32 AM by: ratchinka
weird thought... if they went through a wormhole to another planet... Could they use the meteor's radiant to determine WHATplanet? or where the planet was located?
kind of off the wall but...
I read your post and went to "interesting comment from a friend" Lionartist is on your page. I expressed your idea, (sorry, I forgot to credit you) but it dovetails with your idea.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 10:06 AM by: nafoute
That's what I was saying, nafoute. L'A' TANG is meant to fool us into thinking it's l'etang (accent over the e). Which other words don't you understand, because I think they are also meant to confuse us the same way L'A' TANG does.
I know it's rock under the *something*, but I haven't been able to read that last word clearly. It looks like 'aures' (accent over the e) to me, or 'allres', but it's too blurry. Nafoute, how did you know the word was 'alizes'? Also, does 'aures' or 'allres' make any sense?
One thing that bugs me on that map is the math on the right that is next to the word radiance...
>> well I tried to look up at that and I can t figure out how you read radiance ??? I see only "r" "a" and "d" which could be the beginning of radio or radeau (raft)
and regret bleue. I've a problem here coz if it were "blue regrets", it?d have to be written "regretS bleuS" or "regret bleu" for the singular form. but putting a E at the end of blue (bleu) would mean that the word before if a feminine word not a masculine one. and regret is masculine in french
Could some of the writing be from someone who didn't know French well?
I think she deliberately mis-spelt l'a' tang to confuse us. I believe the L is the math symbol for angle, 'A' is the name of the angle, and tang is short for tangente (tangent in English). That was the jumping off point of my post in the first place, but interesting things have developed from there.
I like that line of thought. In the song, the lyrics are: La mer bergère d'azur Infinie (Infinie meaning infinite or could be eternity)
What Nafoute is suggesting is possibly on the map is: Une *eternite* regret bleue
or
Une *infinite* regret bleue
Question: Is this a reference or a clue to the marking on the map "LAGON BLEU AZURE'?
Nafoute also confirms my earlier comments that bleue would be in reference to a feminine object. Also, the word *une* would be referring to a feminine object. That object is the disputable *I* word *Infinite* is a feminine noun and can be used mathematically to describe and infinite number. However, when I look at this *I* word, it doesn't look like either eternite or infinite. In fact, it may even start with a *J*. I think deciphering that word is the key to the puzzle, but the writers don't want us to know what it is, which is why it is so unclear on the map.
Nafoute, your little French grammar lesson confirms to me that I DO still remember my high school French grammar!
Bloke - You can have my dictionary, I won't tell you how old it is.....lol. I'm beginning to think I might go get myself a really good French-English dictionary, something better than the old high school level thing I've got! Who'd think ** years after high school I'd be using French to discuss a tv show?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:11 AM by: marbalbc
NoNicks - I do see that formula, and I've been wondering about it myself. Those appear to be the symbols for "less than or equal to", but that wouldn't make sense as part of a formula ie: 0 'less than or equal to' times 'less than or equal to' pi.??
That link to math symbols is interesting. Do you notice the elongated 's' shape in front of the formula? It is the Integral sign for 'the integral of'.
So the formula as written is ?The integral of 0 'less than or equal to' times 'less than or equal to' pi?? Again, doesn't make sense, unless as you say the underline is meant to show attention to the angle symbol. So, if we know what the angle is and plug it in to the formula, what would we get?
That's a rhetorical question by the way. Now that we've found a French translator, what are the chances of us getting a Math instructor, or a Physics professor?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:12 AM by: marbalbc
Maybe it's time to recap our thoughts.
1. L 'A' TANG is 'angle A tangent, or tangent of angle A' 2. SABLES MOUVANT is quicksand 3. the circular object over the island could be a meteor 4. RADI.... could be radiance or radiant 5. radiant is the point from which a meteor originates 6. the formulas could be an attempt to calculate the flight path of the meteor, possibly for the purpose of determining their location.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:12 AM by: NoNicksinExile
So I spoke with a friend of mine, and showed him the map... He's a math major.
He said that he couldn't really solve the mathematics based on what was there at first glance, but it does appear to be trying to solve approach angles.
He said like from the sky. Sooo... if he's correct it is showing the approach angle of something from the sky, which gives credit to the meteor thing...
"I dont know..all I can really figure out is that it's acceleration and angles and maybe time, but more in the sense of as you approach at an angle with your speed there is change over time (movement)"
Is what he's gotten so far...
Ok I'm told that there aren't specific variables or numbers he needs...
But he needs to figure out what equations commonly use the variables there... So he can get names for the equations which will help him a whole lot more.
Well.. we could probably do the math for the angles our selves... I'm thinking maybe the tangent has to do with that triangle down below... From what I remember from earlier we only need the two angles to get the tangent!
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:30 AM by: marbalbc
My father also says there's not enough information there to solve the equations. Some things are missing. It seems, however, that the formulas have to do with circle trigonometry.
I think solving the fake lyrics may aid in figuring it out. Danielle, or whoever made the maps, is having a play on words, if only we can figure out what it is.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:39 AM by: ordinary_bloke
it does appear to be trying to solve approach angles.
That could be. I think mar said that radiance could mean a point in sky. So if you wanted to find that point, you could find the horizontal angle along the ground first and then the vertical angle above the horizon to pin it down. Science guys use radians for convenience to measure angles, so radians and radiance could fit together, I suppose.
If your meteor theory is correct, and that thing over the mountain is Danielle's way of illustrating it, it looks almost too perfectly ablated. I guess no one has ever seen one land close up, though. Like Locke said. "It's beautiful". Squish. lol
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:39 AM by: marbalbc
I wonder if the missing parts are on the other maps. You know, the ones that Sayid overlaid to form the triangle? I wish we had good screen caps of them each as a whole, instead of just overlaid.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 11:54 AM by: ordinary_bloke
I wonder if the missing parts are on the other maps. You know, the ones that Sayid overlaid to form the triangle? I wish we had good screen caps of them each as a whole, instead of just overlaid.
I'll bet so. The section that Hurley got so excited about? It had the magic numbers arranged in a ?choose 4? kind of matrix as though you could feed them into the function.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 12:27 PM by: a_c_b
Also, the word *une* would be referring to a feminine object. That object is the disputable *I* word *Infinite* is a feminine noun and can be used mathematically to describe and infinite number. However, when I look at this *I* word, it doesn't look like either eternite or infinite. In fact, it may even start with a *J*. I think deciphering that word is the key to the puzzle, but the writers don't want us to know what it is, which is why it is so unclear on the map.
Could it be UNE INTERDITE? If I'm not mistaken, this would be a forbidden area or a no-go zone. Would this be an appropriate translation, Nafoute?
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POSTED: Jul 21 @ 12:43 PM by: NoNicksinExile
My friend was saying it might also have to do with viewing the water at a certain angle...
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 12:46 PM by: captainaeon
"Interdit", maybe?
Means "out of bounds" or "forbidden"
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 12:47 PM by: NoNicksinExile
Maybe if you view the island from a certain angle?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 01:10 PM by: a_c_b
Interdit is the adjective form, captain. If the article "une" precedes it, then it becomes a noun (and gains an 'e' on the end, to match the feminine article, I think). So it's a forbidden place/person/thing.
I'm hoping Nafoute can verify this for us, though.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 01:36 PM by: nafoute
Could it be UNE INTERDITE? If I'm not mistaken, this would be a forbidden area or a no-go zone. Would this be an appropriate translation, Nafoute?
that s a smart point I didn't think about it. the only problem is that ?une interdite' doesn't exist as itself since ?interdite' would be an adjective and therefore needs a noun after
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:04 PM by: a_c_b
that s a smart point I didn t think about it. the only probleme is that une interdite doesn t exist as itself since interdite would be an adjective and therefore needs a noun after
OK--I did a bit more research on this and I just found a book on Amazon.com called "L'Interdite" and they translate it "The Forbidden Woman."
So, changing the definite article to an indefinite article makes "une interdite" = A forbidden woman.
I don't think that this is necessarily a typical French usage of the word, but it has been used before.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:29 PM by: marbalbc
It could very well be "interdite"
"Une interdite regret bleue"
so.....
'A forbidden blue regret?' 'A forbidden regret blue?' 'A high blue forbidden?'
Is there a zone in the sea that is forbidden? Dangerous? silver reflections, changing reflections, the sea, azure blue lagoon.......
since interdite would be an adjective and therefore needs a noun after
I believe that 'interdite' in this case is referring to the 'regret bleue', regret being the subject.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:35 PM by: a_c_b
since interdite would be an adjective and therefore needs a noun after
I believe that 'interdite' in this case is referring to the 'regret bleue', regret being the subject.
I think regret is a masculine noun, though. It would be un regret, not une regret.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:52 PM by: a_c_b
"Une interdite regret bleue"
I believe that 'interdite' in this case is referring to the 'regret bleue', regret being the subject.
I thought about that, too. But I'm prety sure that "interdit(e)" is an adjective that must be placed after the noun it modifies. For example, a forbidden love is 'un amour interdit' not 'un interdit amour'.
I'm not an expert on French syntax or anything, but I don't think that 'regret' can be the subect modified by 'interdite' in this case.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:52 PM by: captainaeon
OK--I did a bit more research on this and I just found a book on Amazon.com called "L'Interdite" and they translate it "The Forbidden Woman."
So, changing the definite article to an indefinite article makes "une interdite" = A forbidden woman.
I don't think that this is necessarily a typical French usage of the word, but it has been used before.
Is Danielle "The Forbidden Woman"?
Changes my translation to--
At the edge of the pool the forbidden woman very sorry
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:54 PM by: marbalbc
You're right! So why is bleue in the feminine form instead of bleu? Another part of the puzzle.
Could the noun be the 'tangente' in the line above?
I know this whole stanza is neither proper French, nor proper French grammar. Either the people responsible in production are in error, or they're very clever at encrypting.
Or, and this is more likely....Interdite is not the word.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 02:59 PM by: captainaeon
Did nafoute comment about the difference between French poetical expression and regular French? How about slang terms?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 03:07 PM by: a_c_b
You're right! So why is bleue in the feminine form instead of bleu?
Good question! My only thought on this is that 'BLEUE' is actually BLEVE--an acronym for Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion. I POSTED about it earlier, but I realize it's a stretch...
Could the noun be the 'tangente' in the line above?
I don't think so--it wouldn't make sense to put an "une" in between the noun and the adjective.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 03:11 PM by: marbalbc
Did nafoute comment about the difference between French poetical expression and regular French? How about slang terms?
Not specifically. Nafoute did comment on some of the grammar re: le, la,les, l'...which I already knew. Also, the adjective comes after the noun, unlike English where the adjective comes before. eg: la vache brune, (literally - the cow brown). But we would say the 'brown cow'.
Also, ?un' is masculine, referring to the noun, and ?une' is feminine referring to the noun.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 03:21 PM by: a_c_b
I know this whole stanza is neither proper French, nor proper French grammar.
So maybe we should try a slightly different approach...perhaps the lines aren't meant to be understood a cohesive unit or stanza.
Could each line be a stand-alone unit of information? (i.e., the lines preceding and following the 'tangent of angle A' bit have no additional info relating to it, but are just additional notes unto themselves)?
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 03:32 PM by: marbalbc
yes! and that's what I'm trying to figure out. I think they're clues to the formula, or to the maps. If we could see the other topographical maps, maybe we'd be able to piece it together. But we've only seen parts of the other maps.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 05:35 PM by: awcovell
Okay. I'm a dummy when it comes to math. So, while I think this approach is fascinating, I have no idea what any of it means. Can some one break down the theory here for those of us who are math-impaired?
I went back to the maps to look at some of this stuff, but it's clear to me that you all have done more research than I could ever do.
What I thought of -- and please don't blast me if this has come up before or if it seems stupid -- are these questions.
From who's point of view were the maps made? When were they made? Why would Danielle create these maps for herself? Is it possible that there is a smaller island that appears and disappears depending on the tides? Could the thing that looks like it could be a meteor be the moon or even Flight 815 itself?
I know these are all pretty basic, but I think the math itself is just too difficult for me to understand and I think most viewers are like me in the math arena -- pretty ignorant of the theoretical stuff.
Any help here would be appreciated.
POSTED: Jul 21 @ 10:56 PM by: a_c_b
If we could see the other topographical maps, maybe we'd be able to piece it together. But we've only seen parts of the other maps.
Marbal--Have you seen the screencaps of the topographical maps over at Lost & Found?
If you click on the link to 'screencaps with details of the maps' and scroll down the page, they've got some decent close-ups. Details from Map 6, in particular, may be of interest...
Also, it looks like they haven't been able to identify all of the writing there yet, so if your eyes are gettin' bleary tryin' to decipher the text on this map, perhaps a change 'll do them good.
Awesome job with everything you've already come up with, by the way! It's been a pleasure to read and guess along.
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POSTED: Jul 22 @ 03:34 AM by: nafoute
well, "une interdite", is more like..Emmm....a previously known girl. It can't be that. anyways. interesting things on all the maps, great work! some words are funny coz you don t expect to find them on a map. lotta work ahead
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 05:25 AM by: NoNicksinExile To go with Captain's poetry thing...
A lot of times objects (like ships, and cars, and countries) will be described as women.
Example: lady justice...
So we could be dealing with something like that... Like if it IS the forbideen lady, perhaps it's describing something or a place on the island? Like a lake or something?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 07:44 AM by: ordinary_bloke
"Can some one break down the theory here for those of us who are math-impaired?"
Mar thinks the key to unlock the equations is hidden in the mangled French mixed with the math, but they're still working on that. I think all we really know from the math so far is that in two of their many equations, they have drawn a simple triangle. But even then we don't know how big it is, if it's standing up or flat, or even what they intend to do with it!
"Could the thing that looks like it could be a meteor be the moon or even Flight 815 itself?"
If you enlarge the little guy, you can see that it isn't an airplane or any planet we know. But we don't know if it is something flying in or out or over, if it is hovering in place, or stationary and attached to something we can't see. We don't even know how big it is or if it's solid. Too many mysteries, not enough clues yet.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:03 AM by: nafoute
"Could the thing that looks like it could be a meteor be the moon or even Flight 815 itself?"
If you enlarge the little guy, you can see that it isn't an airplane or any planet we know. But we don't know if it is something flying in or out or over, if it is hovering in place, or stationary and attached to something we can't see. We don't even know how big it is or if it's solid. Too many mysteries, not enough clues yet.
can somebody explain to me where the heck y'all see a meteorite?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:08 AM by: marbalbc
Nafoute - it's slightly to the right and above of 'le cratere' - a small circular object in the sky.
"Can some one break down the theory here for those of us who are math-impaired?"
I'm math impaired too. We don't know how to solve the formulas, but there appears to be clues in the s-called lyrics written on the map.
Time for another recap.
1. L 'A' TANG is 'angle A tangent, or tangent of angle A' 2. SABLES MOUVANT is quicksand 3. the circular object over the island could be a meteor 4. RADI.... could be radiance or radiant 5. radiant is the point from which a meteor originates 6. the formulas could be an attempt to calculate the flight path of the meteor, possibly for the purpose of determining their location. 7. the formulas could be an attempt to calculate the trajectory and speed of the meteor(ite)
I'm going to go take another look at those other maps, although I've never been particularly fond of them. I'd rather see them as a whole, rather than focused in on certain areas. However, with what we've been discussing here, maybe I'll see them with new eyes.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:11 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Marb, on that page are also pictures of the parts assembled as a whole. They did a pretty good job considering what they ah to work with...
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:20 AM by: nafoute
yeah and there s also a reconstitution in a 3D way
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:21 AM by: nafoute
oh and yeah I wanted to add something: on the bottom of the map, there s written "le long des golfes claires" but there s also a big mistake and it s been repeated so it's on purpose: it should be CLAIRS not CLAIRES. so is it a new clue? has it something to do with Claire?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:36 AM by: NoNicksinExile
What does that mean translated? If you use Claire as in the name?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:37 AM by: ordinary_bloke Hi, nafoute.
Would you mind looking at something while you're here? There are two phrases in the lower left part of the map. At first they look identical, but the word "golfes" in the top one looks more like "golfis" (i instead of e) and the first letter doesn't look quite like a "g". Is there some other work that might fit? This is a little overboard, but the first two characters could be the digits 60 in one and 90 in the other followed by an abbreviation. I've been staring at this way too long!
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:44 AM by: marbalbc
oh and yeah I wanted to add something: on the bottom of the map, there s written "le long des golfes claires" but there s also a big mistake and it s been repeated so it's on purpose: it should be CLAIRS not CLAIRES. so is it a new clue? has it something to do with Claire?
Yes, Nafoutes - I was asking about that earlier. Is the extra 'e' in there a clue to something or someone else? It is spelled the same way as Claire's name. Is that what it's referring to, or is it a production error?
The other thing I noticed in the stanza above...it speaks of 'des reflects d'argent' and 'des reflects changeants'. The 'c' should not be in the word 'reflets'. Another clue?
I don't think it's production error. These are deliberate mistakes, which on first glance are taken by the viewer to be the actual song lyrics. These mistakes mean something, but what? And this was the whole purpose of this thread, to figure out what they mean.
I visited the other maps, and I'm still not seeing what I want. I did notice though that none of the other maps have any formulas on them, so they don't fill in the pieces of the puzzle to the formulas and the mis-spellings. And I'd still prefer to see a clear full shot of the maps before they've put their own markings on the maps.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 10:53 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Heh... maybe if we take all of those letters that "shouldn't" be there we can spell something?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:05 AM by: marbalbc
At first they look identical, but the word "golfes" in the top one looks more like "golfis" (i instead of e) and the first letter doesn't look quite like a "g". Is there some other work that might fit? This is a little overboard, but the first two characters could be the digits 60 in one and 90 in the other followed by an abbreviation. I've been staring at this way too long
Bloke, that makes you and me both. I've focused in on and enlarged those two phrases and you have a very valid point.
In the first line, the 'g' in golfes almost looks like an '9' but not fully closed in. It lacks the crossbar on top of the downstroke in "G" that appears in other words. The 'L' almost appears to be the angle sign again. Not sure if the 'E' is and 'E' or an 'I'.
Looking at the word 'CLAIRES' in the first line, the 'A' doesn't look like other 'A's on the map. Instead of a clear horizontal stroke, it looks more like a small dot or dash.
Looking at the second line, the 'E' in 'LE' looks curved. In the word 'LONG', the 'G' again looks like a '9' but not enclosed. In the word 'CLAIRES', the 'L' looks like the angle sign, and the 'A' again looks like it has the dot rather than the horizontal stroke in it. And again, the 'E' looks curved.
I went to the website Nick provided yesterday to see if these variations matched any of the mathematical symbols, but for some reason they won't load for me today. i'm so frustrated! Yesterday I could read the entire list. Can someone else try? I know there was a curved E symbol, but don't remember what it was for. Also look for an 'A' type symbol that would look somewhat like a triangle without the bottom line and a dot or dash instead.
Ok here's everything that resembles an a I found...
^ Carat... to the power of ... exponent 2 ^ 5 = 32
(didn't show...) increment sign, Triangle symbol the change in ...triangle ... Indicates a small change, Denotes vertices of triangle m = y / x ABC = DEF
(didn't show) Three dots (in a pyramid)... therefore ... ... it follows that ... Logical statements or mathematical proofs x = y and y = z x = z
possibly greek lambada which denotes frequency...
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:11 AM by: nafoute
take the "g" in "c?te sauvage" (left hand corner) it s not the same as in "golfes claires". it looks like, to me, as if the lower part of the map wasnt on the same paper and was not written by the same person since the handwritting looks different and there re mistakes but yeah marb you're right, reflects shouldn't have a c
NoNicks- it would be exciting if the 'A' was the Greek l a m b d a (wavelength, frequency), but I don't think that's the case. The l a m b d a is more cursive than straight lines. It could very well be the triangle though. The triangle symbol is the increment sign indicating a small change, or it is the triangle symbol, denoting the vertices of a triangle. It seems to me the latter would be a better match, considering the formulas seem to pertain to angles.
The curved 'E' is the 'element of' symbol. I have no idea what that would mean as anything other than basic math is not my thing.
Nafoute -
was not written by the same person since the handwriting looks different
I'm thinking it's not so much that its not the same person doing the writing, as that the person has hidden mathematical symbols within the text.
So, my question now is this. Would it be safe to say that there are mathematical symbols hidden within the lyrics on the map? We shouldn't be so concerned with the translation, as we should with those symbols?
We aren't going to be able to decipher them at this time because Brandon took the key!
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POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:48 AM by: ratchinka
take the "g" in "c?te sauvage" (left hand corner) it s not the same as in "golfes claires". it looks like, to me, as if the lower part of the map wasnt on the same paper and was not written by the same person since the handwritting looks different and there re mistakes but yeah marb you re right, reflects shouldn't have a c
I'm glad you agree there are two different handwritting styles here. There are also two different number styles. Comparing the "lotto numbers" shown on the linked website, (which by the way, are 7 down 6 across=42) they don't match the bar on the bottom right, nor on other math equations. The 2 in the lotto numbers is almost a cursive 2 with a loop on the top and the bottom curve arcs up and down. The bar number 2, flips up. It is also written with a different instrument. Also, on the Regret Bleue - the word regret if you look at the E after the R - it has been obviously inserted after the fact because it is very slanted and the bars of the E don't even touch. It could even be that the GRE have been inserted over another word because the G is not the same as one above. Also, on the left of the mountain across from the Versant Expose', there is an erased but still visible 3 6x?
I am the worst with codes, but perhaps the duo lines on the bottom show a replacement system. Oh. The reflects on the second line looks like it has the Angle as the c. ????????????????????? I'm lost.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:58 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Marb, the capital form of lamda looks like an A without the bar...
but it might be a stretch...
in any case do three dots in a triangle appear on the map anywhere?
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:59 AM by: nafoute
I'm glad you agree there are two different handwritting styles here. There are also two different number styles. Comparing the "lotto numbers" shown on the linked website, (which by the way, are 7 down 6 across=42) they don't match the bar on the bottom right, nor on other math equations. The 2 in the lotto numbers is almost a cursive 2 with a loop on the top and the bottom curve arcs up and down. The bar number 2, flips up. It is also written with a different instrument. Also, on the Regret Bleue - the word regret if you look at the E after the R - it has been obviously inserted after the fact because it is very slanted and the bars of the E don't even touch. It could even be that the GRE have been inserted over another word because the G is not the same as one above. Also, on the left of the mountain across from the Versant Expose', there is an erased but still visible 3 6x?
I am the worst with codes, but perhaps the duo lines on the bottom show a replacement system. Oh. The reflects on the second line looks like it has the Angle as the c. ????????????????????? I'm lost.
I think I got it (but now my contacts are dead ) it s not "le long des golfes claires" because it s not "long". zoom and you'll see there re letters after long like longueur (length)
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 12:27 PMby: ratchinka
I think I got it (but now my contacts are dead ) it s not "le long des golfes claires" because it's not "long". zoom and you'll see there are letters after long like longueur (length)
I can see the erase line more so on the top line. It is a bigger gap than on the bottom line. I see numbers on my line but it is really indistinct. It is an advantage to know French because you can get the impression or intuition of it.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 03:54 PM by: marbalbc
Nafoute - when you come back, could you check out the conjugations for the verbs 'intervenir' and 'intervertir' and see if any of them come close to that mysterious word in the line "Une In......" whatever? Thanks.
it s not "le long des golfes claires" because it s not "long". zoom and you ll see there re letters after long
I don't see anything after 'long', but I was wondering if it might be an abbreviation for 'longitude'.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 06:37 PM by: ratchinka
Shifting sands is indeed another name for quicksand, which is actually a very recent term.
I hadn't seen this at the beginning of the topic. This says to me, that the map isn't as recent as you think.
The word Latitude from my old 1919 Webster's dictionary has this defininition: Astron. More fully, celestial latitude. Angular distance of a heavenly body from the ecliptic. From 1919. Scot. or Eng. TANG- A low projecting cape or narrow strip of land. Where there is a fold, there is also a simple measuring line marked off just like the latitude lines on the sides. It is right above the bar on the right bottom with the numbers. Is it really supposed to be 60 Kilm? It looks written over. Possibly All - Au?
Where it says Crab bay, there are numbers. 88.2(x)5 ? or some math symbols by the rock.
The height of the meteor is 3,000.
POSTED: Jul 22 @ 11:45 PM by: marbalbc
The word Latitude from my old 1919 Webster's dictionary has this definition: Astron. More fully, celestial latitude. Angular distance of a heavenly body from the ecliptic. From 1919. Scot. or Eng. TANG- A low projecting cape or narrow strip of land.
ooo, that definition of latitude is interesting. And so is Tang. Both could apply here, but I have a small problem with it. While 'latitude' is spelled the same in English and French, 'tang' is not a French word. I'm not ready to accept that English and French are being used together on the map....unless that's part of the encryption and that darn Brandon is still on the loose with the key!
Nafoute - when you come back, could you check out the conjugations for the verbs 'intervenir' and 'intervertir' and see if any of them come close to that mysterious word in the line "Une In......" whatever? Thanks.
it s not "le long des golfes claires" because it s not "long". zoom and you ll see there re letters after long
I don't see anything after 'long', but I was wondering if it might be an abbreviation for 'longitude'.
ok lemme see... Intervenir: present> j'interviens tu interviens il (elle) (on) intervient nous intervenons vous intervenez ils (elles) interviennent
noun: une intervention
intervertir: present j'inerviens tu interviens il (elle) (on) intervient nous intervenons vous intervenez ils (elles) interviennent
noun: une inversion
POSTED: Jul 23 @ 09:46 AM by: marbalbc
Thank you for doing that Nafoute. Unfortunately it doesn't look like any of them are what's on the map either, especially as it would have to be the noun rather than the verb.
POSTED: Jul 23 @ 10:06 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Where there is a fold, there is also a simple measuring line marked off just like the latitude lines on the sides. It is right above the bar on the right bottom with the numbers. Is it really supposed to be 60 Kilm? It looks written over. Possibly All - Au?
Where it says Crab bay, there are numbers. 88.2(x)5 ? or some math symbols by the rock.
You're right, it really doesn't look very much like a distance scale. Km would make the mountain too wide compared to its height, and 60 is a strange place to end a distance scale anyway. 60 would be better for an angular scale as you said. There is a part of the equation that could be sweeping through 180 degrees, like half way around a circle, so that might fit in some way. Do you think it might be a large X rather than K? I can't think of any of the K's that would fit angles on a small scale.
I've looked all around Crab Bay, and I can't see the 88.... thing? The "3" in 39 to the left of the double golfes lines looks odd, more like a symbol.
POSTED: Jul 23 @ 11:10 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Do you think they may have put the crabs and quicksand together as a single clue? I think (means don't know at all) that warm water crabs are susceptible to very small changes in temp. Some researchers here put crabs in a pot and raised the temp to see when they kicked over. Seems like a cruel thing for an environmentalist to do, but they found just a degree makes a big difference for the crabs. So could there be especially warm or cold water rising up to form quicksand and disturb the crabs too? A marine researcher might be interested in that. But then again, I think Danielle turned in because of the broadcast rather than just poking around, so probably not.
I don't exactly understand how you can have quicksand in the ocean though. An article said the sand has to be saturated enough with water to break down the natural friction between grains, but you can't get much wetter than being in the ocean. Does the sand have to be agitated in some way also to get the whole "quick" process started?
POSTED: Jul 23 @ 03:56 PM by: LostinBlue
I don't exactly understand how you can have quicksand in the ocean though. An article said the sand has to be saturated enough with water to break down the natural friction between grains, but you can't get much wetter than being in the ocean. Does the sand have to be agitated in some way also to get the whole "quick" process started?
I was searching on the subject of mining and quicksand. I found these two articles about tunnel making that mention quicksand. The second one talks about the use of mathematics and drilling a tunnel. I keep wondering about what is on the map that gives hints to the hatch and apparent underground tunnels.
You're right, it really doesn't look very much like a distance scale. Km would make the mountain too wide compared to its height, and 60 is a strange place to end a distance scale anyway. 60 would be better for an angular scale as you said. There is a part of the equation that could be sweeping through 180 degrees, like half way around a circle, so that might fit in some way. Do you think it might be a large X rather than K?
I've looked all around Crab Bay, and I can't see the 88.... thing? The "3" in 39 to the left of the double golfes lines looks odd, more like a symbol.
Yes, the K on the scale could be an X. Xam? It is written very messily compared to the numbers. The numbers themselves must have been written with a flat chisel pencil, fountainhead pen, caligraphy pen or a quill. You don't get that kind of writing with just a round pencil. The scale bar seems placed later because it takes off the round part of the six.
Do you think what A said about the "shifting sands" and quicksand, means the information found on the map, is old? The map's graphics don't look old.
The numbers, at least the 8's run in front of the DES in the crab line. The x part is uncertan because it lies under the E. I have photoshop and darken the pencil marks so it is easier to see.
So what is the ultimate clue or direction for this map? Perhaps just a place to go for the losties to meet their next challenges.
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POSTED: Jul 23 @ 10:31 PM by: ratchinka
Yea, quicksand happens to the best of islands. Under a lot of circumstances.
Wow. I've totally missed the obvious. I redid the map using the color levels. (no excuse because it still can be seen with the naked eye) The shifting sands. Slow S curves and dots for the sand. Unlike the waves between the two islands. Guess where the point of perspective is? Eye level to the other island. Not standing on a boat, on the other "reflected" or mirror island.
That is what I've been puzzling or I should say, folding. Folding the map together trying to mirror it in some way like those mystery novels where folding the pict makes a new one. But not until I looked at the sands and the perspective. Dooh!
POSTED: Jul 23 @ 10:58 PM by: ratchinka
P.S. Someone said it earlier about another island. ......you were right I believe.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 08:54 AM by: MEandthesea
The height of the meteor is 3,000.
Wait a minute - you're calling the entire crater mountain a "meteor"??? The whole mountain can't be a meteor, or meteorite... but it's where a meteor hit, yes?
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 09:38 AM by: ratchinka
Wait a minute - you're calling the entire crater mountain a "meteor"??? The whole mountain can't be a meteor, or meteorite... but it's where a meteor hit, yes?
No I wasn't callling the mountain a meteor. I just ran a line from the measuring line on the left, across to the "meteor" (the blob in the sky to the right of the island) Actually, someone has calculated what the left measurements are in miles on another link a little further back in the topic, so 3,000 isn't correct in miles. I think anyway.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 09:44 AM by: MEandthesea No I wasn't calling the mountain a meteor. I just ran a line from the measuring line on the left, across to the "meteor" (the blob in the sky to the right of the island) Actually, someone has calculated what the left measurements are in miles on another link a little further back in the topic, so 3,000 isn't correct in miles. I think anyway.
Ah, gotcha! Yes, we were definitely speculating that the little blob above the crater is a meteor.
Hadn't thought about the measurements on the left being in miles, rather than meters. That's odd... that they'd be in miles, while the bottom horizontal measure is metric. Also, Europeans usually use metrics.
So if both are used on that map, then it's another indicator that perhaps Danielle added to a map (or maps) that someone else originally created.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 10:13 AM by: ratchinka
The curves for the shifting sands at the bottom of the map, represent the way a sand bar looks. Like little sand dune ripples.
The bar on the lower right probably represents nautique or nautical miles. The writng is exactly how I saw it on an antique map from 1771.
Water drops shouldn't make an old map white like the ones spilled across the top of the map. Unless the art dept. used water soluable color to tint the paper, something else (chemicals) dropped on it.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 11:59 AM by: ordinary_bloke
Also, Europeans usually use metrics.
In French as used in France, the group separator for numbers is a space and the decimal separator is a comma. Is that right? So 1 000,99 in French is 1,000.99 in English?
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 12:39 PM by: ratchinka
Sorry MEanT, I'm think I'm getting you confused. On a link, somewhere above, there is a translation of the map on a web site. They have calculated from the metric, the height in miles. But I do think there is more than one person writing on this map.
By the by, I'm now thinking the curves on the shifting sands, mean the waves as they wash ashore.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 03:02 PM by: ordinary_bloke
They have calculated from the metric, the height in miles.
I guess on a map as strange as this one, we should question everything that looks obvious at first. Do you think it might not be an elevation scale at all? We just think it is because it has notches next to the mountain? If it is in meters like the little m implies, it would make the mountain very tall, around 9800 feet. If the trees are to scale, and even if they are large, it just looks like the mountain wouldn't be that high. Do you see anything between the 3 and the 000 in the scale?
I am sure they have signed this picture somewhere in the bushes. They couldn't resist it! Have you found the hidden signature yet?
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 03:55 PM by: marbalbc
I just realized something. I was looking at the double writing of LE LONG DES GOLFES CLAIRES on the lower left corner of the map. Nafoute had earlier said they thought they could make out erased letters after LONG, and thought the word may have been 'longeur' (length).
I couldn't see what he saw, but I did notice there was a big gap between LONG and DES. Something had been erased all right. Then it hit me.
LONG DES LONG ITU DES
The missing letters are ITU !!!
39 DEGREES LONGITUDE!!
So, here's what I'm sure of so far.
AU BORD DE L'A' TANG = Edge (side) of tangent angle A
SABLES MOUVANTS = Quicksand
and what I just said above
LONG DES = LONGITUDES, probably 39 degrees.
What other clues are hidden within the lyrics? The clues aren't hidden in the translations so much, it's what is hidden in the words themselves....look at the 'lyrics'. Why have certain lines and words been substituted? What is the meaning behind those subsitutions? The translations are not what's important. Look at the words. Look at the phrases. Look at the lettering. What else has been substituted or altered?
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 04:20 PM by: captainaeon
BRILLIANT!
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 04:23 PM by: ordinary_bloke
I suspect the "3" in the 39 degrees you mentioned might be a symbol instead? Not sure. Not in the lyrics either, but "westerly winds" might have a slightly different meaning. More like english vents? Could it be interpreted in that way? Something like westerly vents or openings (in the mountain)?
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 04:52 PM by: marbalbc
I suspect the "3" in the 39 degrees you mentioned might be a symbol instead? Not sure. Not in the lyrics either, but "westerly winds" might have a slightly different meaning. More like english vents? Could it be interpreted in that way? Something like westerly vents or openings (in the mountain)?
Regarding the 'vents'....there is only one translation for this, and it is 'winds'. It's not in the lyrics, but I don't think we're meant to think it is. There are markings on the map that are 'landmarks' that one would expect and not find unusual. Then there are snippets from the real lyrics (upper right corner) And then there are the 'lyrics' that aren't the lyrics at all. The ones I find so intriguing.
I thought the '3' in '39' might be a symbol as well, but according to that website provided by NoNicks, it doesn't seem to be a recognizable mathematical symbol. It definitely looks different from the other '3's on the map. Actually, it's sort of separated from the 9, a slightly larger gap than in the 36 and 38 marked on the triangle in the right corner, and definitely a different shape. Worth keeping in mind.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 05:39 PM by: ratchinka
I am sure they have signed this picture somewhere in the bushes. They couldn't resist it! Have you found the hidden signature yet?
My only guess is on the bottom left flank of the mountain, above the rock that in the water. This is the rock with the skull. (at least I see it) Can't make any letter out except there may be a cursive rs at the end of it. That's of course, if it is anything.
I shall be departing this topic. My summary of the pict. is that:
The map is drawn from the perspective of someone standing on the shoreline of another island. The shifting sands at the bottom, shows the waves washing onto the shoreline. (sharp deep waves are in between the rocks and the farthest island) There is older writing on the right bottom along the bar, perhaps nautical measurements.
The meteor, all the angles, math and double words, I will leave to those whose bent is toward that area.
Adieu
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 06:10 PM by: marbalbc
ratchinka - I hope you will still stop in to visit. The math is way beyond me as well but I think there is a lot to be learned from the maps and you may still have more to contribute than you think. So instead of saying adieu, I say
au revoir!
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 07:56 PM by: ELMIRAGE
mar, I've given the 36*,38* ,41* and 39* longitude some thought, all these places are in Africa @ 0* latitude. the last one is in Mbalambala, Kenya, Africa. The only connection to Africa is the Beechcraft and Locke's story of the Black Rock and slaves. Why would it be on Danielles map?? great work on the map word clues, I bet there are several more, everything is suspect. EL
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 08:20 PM by: LostDuckie7
Hi. I'm a lurker here with some math and physics background. On the sandbars I agree with what Ratchinka said. These might be warnings for ships to avoid, areas where the sandbars would shift around and ground ships that went near them unaware.
I've been look at the equations and the first two make sense but I'm not sure what to do with them. The third one is illegible unfortunately. For some reason everything in the first two equations is scaled by 500 and they seemed to have made point of doing this. The equations as listed here http://www.xs4all.nl/~arie777/lost/index.html look correct:
A = sqrt((13/500)^2+(9/500)^2) = 0.0316
This would be the square root of the sum of the square of the two sides, or the hypotenuse. Think of the first side as the elevation (13/500) of some point on the mountain (crater maybe?). The second side (9/500) would be the distance along the ground to under the mountain where this point is. Then the hypotenuse would be the distance directly to this point as the crow flies. You could also use A=sqrt((13)^2 + (9)^2)) = 15.811 and then the divide 15.811 you get 0.0316 again. This is describing the same triangle but scaled to different sizes. Since we don't know what the units of measurement are (feet, meters, etc.) it's hard to say why this scaling was done, or why the particular number 500.
The second equation gives the angle from the two sides. If you use the same example it would the azimuth angle or angle between the level and the point on the mountain. The equation
is:
phi = arctan(13/9*500/500) = 0.965
If you start knowing the elevation again is 13/500 then call this a. The distance along the ground is 9/500 and call it b. The the sine of the angle is the opposite side over the hypotenuse or a/h. The cosine of the angle is adjacent side over hypotenuse or b/h. Then the tangent is sine/cosine or:
The arctan gives the angle when you know the tangent. The angle is then arctan(13/9) or 0.965 (IN RADIANS) This is 55.305 degrees (pi 3.1459 radians = 180 degrees, so mulitpy by 180 and divide by 3.1459 to get degrees). Again the 500/500 is just mulitplying by one and scales the size of the triangle but has no effect on the shape or angles.
This also could be applied to some other point like a star in the sky, etc. There's nothing I can see that shows what this triangle is or how it's scaled.
-----------------------
On the bottom of the map the funny looking partial triangle with the 36 degrees/38 degrees might have something to do with making the map. I found this on wikiedia:
Triangulation, as invented by Gemma Frisius around 1533, consists of making such direction plots of the surrounding landscape from two separate standpoints. After that, the two graphing papers are superimposed, providing a scale model of the landscape, or rather the targets in it. The true scale can be obtained by just measuring one distance both in the real terrain and in the graphical representation.
If they measured points from two places using the angles written on the map, and the places marked then they would get a very accurate scaled map of the island.
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POSTED: Jul 24 @ 08:33 PM by: ELMIRAGE thanks duckie, that's the best explaination of the equations I've heard. there is a ball shaped object in the sky over the crater to the right. some have speculated that it is a meteor,can these equations be applied to it?EL
It might show the trajectory if it's heading towards the crator on the left & below. The angle doesn't look right though. It look to be heading at maybe 40 degrees by just eyeballing it, where 90 is straight down and 0 is level so a little less than halfway between.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 09:26 PM by: ELMIRAGE
hey duckie, I know the equations can be useful in figuring area and volume, what about latitude or longitude? its getting too late to think straight. what would a scale of 500 mean? 13/5 = 2.6 the mountains are approx 2.6 km tall (2600m)EL
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 09:42 PM by: LostDuckie7
If you integrate the the triangle around the vertical axis you would end up with the volume of cone shape kind of like the mountain. I don't know to do with it from there though. Also it would be easier to look up a formula for cone volume than the math...
I tried to tie this to the elevations too just like you said but nothing jumped out at me. 500 is just such a nice round number, but most conversions (metic/english) or physical constants don't come out anywhere near that nice.
POSTED: Jul 24 @ 11:20 PM by: marbalbc
LostDuckie - welcome to the thread and thank you for joining us. I agree yours is the best explanation of the formulas I've seen yet. I won't pretend to understand everything you've said, but it's refreshing to find someone who understands the formulas.
I'll never understand the method behind the math, but from what I understand of what you're saying, these equations are being used to 'scale' the map to size....as in a land survey? If so, do they not have to have a fixed point on which to base their calculations? And if so, would you be able to tell from these formulas and the map what that fixed point would be?
Any chance the formulas are being used to map their location, or the trajectory and acceleration of the meteor as I think was suggested in an earlier post?
Also, suppose we inverted the triangle...could we get the depth/size of a crater?
I feel like we're complete now. We got our French translator, and now we have our math/physics expert. Woo Hoo!
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 06:35 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Could it simply be them trying to find the radio tower?
Remember Dannielle said they spent a while looking for it?
Also, the idea that they were simply mapping the island is a good point... Like they just wanted to get a scale of the island... Maybe Sayid can use it to get that scale he needed to make the maps usable?
I'm still partial to the idea of the meteor though... Maybe showing blast radius?
Also Quicksand is common, apparently, near coasts...
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 07:30 AM by: turminus Excellent math up above! Its ridiculous I didn't spot it, the 500 scale threw me off.
Solving the triangles side lengths, plus that one adjacent angle is 2/3rds of a formula used "in the wild" to guess the height of an uknown object on sloped surface. I'm with NoNicks on the Radio Tower idea.
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 07:33 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Ok... so if it is something looking for the height of something, then I'm thinking either the height of the mountain, or the height of the meteor.
Or something else? The height of the bubble surrounding the island?
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 07:43 AM by: LA5648
Excellent math up above! Its ridiculous I didn't spot it, the 500 scale threw me off.
Solving the triangles side lengths, plus that one adjacent angle is 2/3rds of a forumla used "in the wild" to guess the height of an uknown object on sloped surface. I'm with NoNicks on the Radio Tower idea.
Wow- I gotta 3rd vote for nonicks radio tower thought--brilliant!!
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 08:12 AM by: slpy
Wow! Great thread you guys! I haven't read very far into it but I wanted to comment on Africa.
The only connection to Africa is the Beechcraft and Locke's story of the Black Rock and slaves. why would it be on Danielle's map??
Well there have been many comments and clues leading to Africa. Off the top of my head I can list a couple more. Walt: "Why can't I study birds of Egypt?" Sayid went to Cairo Univ. The pyramid on Jacks arm. These clues were put in for a reason. What the reason is I haven't figured out yet.
If you plug Hurley's numbers into Longitude (one at a time) you get a line crossing over Africa.
Don't you think the equations on the map are connected to quantum physics? If Danielle and her team really were studying time travel, maybe these are some equations for a tesseract? I don't know but I thought I would throw it in here for you brilliant people.
Have a great day!
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 08:24 AM by: NoNicksinExile
slpy... Not sure...
Could be time travel... I'm still on that kick... But I don't know enough about the math involved...
Would you need to triangulate for time travel? For creating a wormhole?
Maybe you could use it to determine the effects of a wormhole? IE how much gravity you'd need to "create" in order to get somewhere? Dunno...
Still... the fact that someone says triangles are used in surveyig to determine distances seems relavent. Like a simple answer.
They just wanted to get a scale of the island...
Still doesn't mean the hidden stuff isn't important... just maybe not related to those equations???
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 09:53 AM by: nafoute
In French as used in France, the group separator for numbers is a space and the decimal separator is a comma. Is that right? So 1 000,99 in French is 1,000.99 in English? yope but in french it d be 1000.99 or 1,000.99
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 11:21 AM by: ratchinka
Ok one last time.
The side measurements of latitude is in english I believe and they match the measurement bar at the bottom that is hidden as a fold. Since this measurement line is very faint, I think someone made a new bar (the bold one ) because the increments match. That will give you the width/length of the island.
If you had a sextant, would these equations have more relevance?
I just realized something. I was looking at the double writing of LE LONG DES GOLFES CLAIRES on the lower left corner of the map. Nafoute had earlier said they thought they could make out erased letters after LONG, and thought the word may have been 'longeur' (length).
I couldn't see what he saw, but I did notice there was a big gap between LONG and DES. Something had been erased all right. Then it hit me.
LONG DES LONG ITU DES
The missing letters are ITU !!!
Marbal--Great catch on the missing letters!!!
Take a closer look at CLAIRES. Two things keep jumping out at me:
2) The I appears to be deliberately slanted in relation to the rest of the letters.
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 02:26 PM by: NoNicksinExile
Can we use the numbers to show the sizing of the triangles?
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 03:00 PM by: ordinary_bloke
I've been thinking maybe it's the greek letter l a m b d a ? That's sometimes used to denote wavelength. C is sometimes used to denote the speed of light or speed of sound. If you divide C / A you get frequency of the wave (whatever kind), I think. One of the summary equations looks a little bit like that.
Why won't this thing let me write l a m b d a all together???
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 03:49 PM by: marbalbc
L*ambda would be cool, but I don't think that's what it is. It would look like a capital A, but without the crossbar. I think it simply is a triangle, when used as a math symbol is either the increment sign, meaning "the change in"; or the triangle symbol, meaning "denotes vertices of triangle". The second definition probably makes more sense given the formulas seem to have more to do with angles and triangles than anything else.
The same shape appears in a few of the words disguised as an A.
Another possibility of the triangle symbol is that it denotes the Greek 'Delta' (D)
Also, someone mentioned earlier that the Latitude scale is in English. In both French and English, the words longitude and latitude are both spelt the same, so I wouldn't necessarily take that as a sign the map was in English at one point. A possibility, but not proof.
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 03:53 PM by: ELMIRAGE
well, I've been thinking about the equations and the map. the clues have been leading up to longitudes and latitudes. triangles and angle measurements. the scales could be in degrees? or maybe radians. when measuring angles in radians you don't need a scale over 60 degrees . a circle (earth) has 6 radians each about 60*. if you transpose the 60 or 6.0 scale on the latitude scale the scale lines line up. the 6.0 line in the scale lines up with our mystery ball. it also lines up with the 3000m scale on the left. I propose that the ball is actually Polaris the north star.what else would be stationary in the sky. this would match my latitude calculations from the star caps. 5*52' North. some of theses equations and scales were used to find the inclination to the horizon of polaris.what do think of this theory?? EL
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 04:07 PM by: marbalbc
ELM - I've been thinking that object in the sky too. I don't know whether it's Polaris, although that would make sense since it is stationary, and they require a fixed point on which to base their calculations. I had been thinking maybe the moon, but it's not in a fixed position, so not likely. I'll go with you on the Polaris idea.
I don't know why it would be a meteor. Unless they were there to see it coming in, they wouldn't really know which direction it came from and wouldn't have any reason to draw it in the sky. I'm dropping the meteor idea as of now. (Although I think there is a meteor on the island, it's just not what's drawn on the map)
Not being at all mathematically able, I have to defer judgement on your theory. Perhaps if LostDuckie returns he can offer an opinion. For now I'll just say it sounds good to me!
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 05:12 PM by: ladymucker
I forgot who, back a little someone posted somethin g that has been bugging me for a while: the map is drawn from the perspective of the someone out to see or from another shore. Now, if Danielle drew the map, she wouldn't have swam out to sea and started drawing. Are we sure this is a map of the island they are on? Or maybe its the island that we sometimes see in the distance. If you look at the 3D map (http://www.xs4all.nl/~arie777/lost/) there isn't an angle you can be at sea at to get the island to match the map. Help?
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 05:33 PM by: marbalbc
ladymucker - I'm one of a few people who said the map is drawn by someone across the water -whether from a boat or another island. I think from another island, and the 'quicksand' is the shore of that island.
I, too, question whether the island on the drawing is the island they are actually on, or another one across the water.
The other maps they have show two wavy plateaus, somewhat fern-like in appearance, but with no mountain drawn in. The island in the drawing shows a mountain, not a flat plateau. I'm wondering if they are even maps of the same island.
The only way it could be, is if the drawing is of the island at the end where the assumed crater is drawn on the map.
I've tried using that 3-d map, but it's much too dark to see much of anything, at least on my computer.
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POSTED: Jul 25 @ 05:41 PM by: ladymucker
The new 3D is much darker then the last version, so it might not help. But I played with it here and turned it, but I couldn't get it to match up with the map. I think the information on the map are clues, but I don't think the drawing itself might of any relation to the island. Make sense?
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 05:56 PM by: ratchinka
Those fern parts are the lava steppes. The second screen that shows up on this lost site, shows at the top, the lava steppes. On the map, the highest peak on the left, is a ridge running down to the right and it does look like eroded lava, sharp and all.
POSTED: Jul 25 @ 10:22 PM by: LostDuckie7
Long day but I'm still looking in here. I'm still guessing as much as everyone else what this could apply to. Surveying was or locating something was what came to mind first since it was on a map. Trying to find the radio tower, locating the island relative to a star, locating something else on the island all seem like reasonable possibilities. I need to read up some more on sextants & surveying to see if I can find anything there.
That thing above the island could be a star as clue to locate the island. It's is sure drawn funny for just a star. If it's a meteor then this could be a clue to 'when'. Has anyone researched actual meteors that would have been spotted in the South Pacific?
I hope this stuff is related to the island somehow. I'd hate think someone was just using the map for scratch paper, something to write poems to someone else on...
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 12:10 AM by: ladymucker
Ok, I must just be missing it or really dense at the moment. What meteor? I'm bouncing between threads and I can't find a meteor. I've looked at the map and can't find it. Help? Pretty please?
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 12:13 AM by: marbalbc
There is a circular object in the sky above the island, slightly above and to the right of "la Cratere". Some people have speculated that it is a meteor, myself included.
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 05:17 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Maybe it's The Milky Way.
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 07:51 AM by: MEandthesea
When I saw the Moth again, when Sayid was explaining triangulation, I thought of the triangle on the map.
Duckie, I read your post saying that the 500 in the equation on the map is scale. I had POSTED something about that a while back, so I was very happy to hear that you think that's what it is. You clearly know a lot more about equations like that than I do - I merely found something on a webpage that led me to believe that it was 500 scale.
I also believe that the map with the crater mountain isn't a view of the entire southern end of the island, but ONLY the part with the crater mountain. If you look at the top view map of the island, you'll see that the crater mountain is only about 1/4, or maybe 1/3 at the most, of the width of the south end of the island...
If she made a map of JUST the crater mountain, I'd think that's very telling. I've been wondering if she's trying to figure out the area and volume of the mountain for some reason... or maybe the crater. Could she be trying to determine how big the mountain was before a meteor hit it, in an attempt to figure out the size of the meteor?
My first thought about that ball about the crater is that it's a meteor... Though, A. said something... asking us if it reminds us of something related to the island... the surviors. All I could think of was the volcanic rock golf balls they used - especially those we see Jin using in "... in Translantion". Unless they weren't volcanic rock golf balls - but pieces of a meteorite. HMMMMMMMM... hadn't thought of that!
I also always thought the golf course was built in the crater on that mountain... which, now that I think the beach camp is on the beach on the other side of that mountain, it seems even more likely that is where the golf course is (in the crater).
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 08:01 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Thats an interesting thought, that it's just one mountain...
Heh maybe the ball in the sky is 815.
In any case I don't think the scale on the bottom of the map is supposed to go with the top map.
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 04:00 PM by: ladymucker
And another quick note:
Someone brought this up in the mining thread and I thought I would pass it on to you all and see what you think. I know you talked about the quick sands, but I can't find this reference here. If it has been discussed, please disregard.
Regarding quicksand, "sables mouvants" on the map. I'm puzzled because, from the map, it appears to be off shore, underwater. How would Danielle have discovered it and what cocsequence would it have underwater? Quicksand is only a hazard on land where you can step into it. POSTED by Cave_Ignoramus
He brings up a good point, if its in the water already then it really isn't quick sand, its just the floor of the sea. Comments?
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 08:28 PM by: marbalbc
Maybe a sandbar or the shore of another island? It IS a bit of a puzzle, but what part of the map isn't?
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 08:33 PM by: LostinBlue
Maybe a sandbar or the shore of another island? It IS a bit of a puzzle, but what part of the map isn't?
Sandbar sounds the best of all. Moving sands - shifting sandbar. Makes sense.... maybe.
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 08:49 PM by: ladymucker
There actually are some sand dunes that are moving. There is a set of dunes outside of Perth, towards the southeast that are moving pretty quickly. They are slowly engulfing the forest that is beside it and it is all due to winds. The dunes are moving at 4 meters a year, which is pretty darn fast. But, I think Daneille would have to be on the island for a couple of years to notice that. Hrm...
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 09:23 PM by: marbalbc
Which brings up the point again, that the drawing may not be of the island that they are on, but of another island across the water. Either that, or Danielle (or someone) has/had access to a boat/raft/whatever to get out to sea and look back at the island to draw the map.
Anyone notice anything else in the 'lyrics' that might be clues?
POSTED: Jul 26 @ 10:06 PM by: a_c_b
What other clues are hidden within the lyrics? The clues aren't hidden in the translations so much, it's what is hidden in the words themselves....look at the 'lyrics'. Why have certain lines and words been substituted? What is the meaning behind those subsitutions? I repeat - the translations are not what's important. Look at the words. Look at the phrases. Look at the lettering. What else has been substituted or altered?
OK everyone, I've got some rambling thoughts and observations regarding the "UNE INTER???" line. Please bear with me--I haven't put them in any particular order, and I realize that they present competing theories (i.e., mutually exclusive and not to be taken as a whole), but I thought it might be a good idea to at least *try* to identify a few possibilities, as marbal suggested.
--the final letter in "INTER???" appears to be an E with an accent grave (`) above it. Does it look that way to anyone else?
--rather than "UNE INTER???", perhaps it's "UN E INTER???". Meaning that 'E' is the subject and 'INTER???" is a verb or an adjective modifying a masculine subject. (I'm not sure whether French letters are given masculine articles, though, so this would need to be verified. Nafoute, how would you say "an E" in French?) If so, this could also change the role of the final 'E' in "INTER???".
--the 'N' in "UNE" looks a bit funny...the final stroke isn't perpendicular, and it sort of resembles the symbol immediately preceding the equal sign in the third equation (i.e., the equation where the bottom set of arrows point to the word 'radiance'). If the 'N' is a symbol of some sort, then 'U' and 'E' would probably play a part in the equation(s), too.
--the letters U and E also appear in the final line of the pseudo-lyrics: "REGRET BLEUE", so if we determine that there's anything more to them, it may lead us to more clues.
I may not be explaining myself very well here, so please feel free to jump in!
POSTED: Jul 27 @ 08:06 AM by: ratchinka
Did anyone see on the page with the lotto numbers, the calculation? It is the same but unfinished, (or re-thought) as the one found on the map. The first cal. by the mystery stanzas. ___________ A = V (13) + ( 9 ) 2 x 500
POSTED: Jul 27 @ 01:45 PM by: marbalbc
I've been looking at that 'Une Int.....' line again, and again, and again. You have a point regarding the 'N'. I'm wondering if originally it was a 'V' and the first downstroke was added to make it an 'N'. The 'I' in 'inte.....' looks like it could be a J, or even, was originally an 'O', but the left side of the curve was erased and the cross stroke added to make it a J or an I. The 'T' doesn't look right either, what we've assumed is an 'e' could be the small letter 'r', the capital R could be a 'D'. I keep looking through my French dictionary to see if I can find any words that contain or begin with any combination of what those letters look like. In five years of French lessons in school, I don't think I ever studied French as hard as I'm doing now! And it was one of my favorite classes!
The more and more I look at the stanza, the more suspicious I become. I know there are clues in there. Letters have been added or altered, some letters are rather 'ambiguous' as to what they really are. Certain letters are darker than the other letters and maybe have been added to the original printing. It's so frustrating knowing the clues are there, but not being able to recognize them.
If any of our French friends see this, can you pick out the 'mistakes' or changes in the words? Any alternate suggestions of what they may have originally been?
POSTED: Jul 27 @ 04:48 PM by: a_c_b
The 'I' in 'inte.....' looks like it could be a J, or even, was originally an 'O', but the left side of the curve was erased and the cross stroke added to make it a J or an I.
I agree with you on all counts! I even thought that the initial letter could be an S. Does it look to you like something could have been erased between that initital letter and the 'N'? That would give us a lot more options to play with... even though we're trying to narrow things down
Another thought on the "UNE" preceding it-- perhaps it's U NE (rough translation: U is/does not...)?
POSTED: Jul 27 @ 05:08 PM by: a_c_b
I just realized something. I was looking at the double writing of LE LONG DES GOLFES CLAIRES on the lower left corner of the map. Nafoute had earlier said they thought they could make out erased letters after LONG, and thought the word may have been 'longeur' (length).I couldn't see what he saw, but I did notice there was a big gap between LONG and DES. Something had been erased all right. Then it hit me. LONG DES LONG ITU DES The missing letters are ITU !!!
marbal-- Since your brilliant discovery on this, I've been looking at the last parts of the two lines, trying to see what might be hidden in "GOLFES CLAIRES".
Take a look at the two different ways in which the letter G is written in golfes. In the top line, it almost resembles a 9, and in the bottom line, I think it definitely resembles a 6. Taken with the Os that follow the Gs, we may have the numbers 90 and 60.
I don't know whether these have anything to do with longitude, but the deliberate differences in the Gs seem to be begging for our attention.
Also, I am curious about 'longitudes' being plural, whereas latitude is written on the map in singular form (without an S at the end).
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POSTED: Jul 27 @ 05:42 PM by: trabinodada
The mysterious word could be "intervalle" (distance, space), that sounds more like maths. But after a long time of watching the map I see tortured letters in every pixels.
About the "E" yes it the "une E" form for the females, but there is a huge numbers of exceptions. For example: Clair (bright) is in the male form. when Danielle write Claires twice on the bottom of the map she must do that mistake deliberately. hmmm... I like that idea about the LONGITUDE does the E of Claires could sayed Est or EAST ?
POSTED: Jul 27 @ 09:17 PM by: ordinary_bloke
There are two small math fragments in the upper right part of the page between those swooping arrows coming from the equations and the top of the latitude scale. The lower one looks something like:
Greek phi (circle with slash) square root of (some number) Instead, could it be:
C / square root (225.) ???
If you stand way back from the page, doesn't it look as though "Face au Vent" is the title of the page? It's a little larger and centered. Then if you look at the swooping lines from the equations, they seem to be repeated in three evenly spaced sets on the left face of the mountain and are labeled "vents d'ouest".
POSTED: Jul 28 @ 09:03 AM by: blissfullylost
I was reading the transcript for Special yesterday, and part of it reminded me of this thread. It's probably not relevent, and I'm sure you all have heard it before, but I think it's worth posting?
[Shot of Sayid spreading out maps.]
Sayid
Once I realized these equations were coordinates, latitude and longitude, I assumed the French woman was trying to determine the location of the island. But it was incomplete, the notations fragmented.
Shannon
Except for the fish song.
Sayid
MmHmm.
Jack
The what?
Sayid
But when I laid the pages down like this [Sayid lays the maps on top of each other revealing a triangle] I realized it wasn't showing the location of the island. I think it's a location on the island. Specifically, here.
Jack
So where are we in relation to the triangle?
Sayid
Well, the map is hardly in scale, so I don't know.
Jack
We're not even sure it's a map of this island, are we?
Sayid
We're not, no. But this may be the transmitter sending out the distress call. And it's power source.
POSTED: Jul 28 @ 09:32 AM by: captainaeon
Last night, I dreamt about the shifting sands...
In my dream, they were the sands that the waves take away as the receding tides wash over them.
I live near the ocean. In the winter, the tides come in and wash away tons of sand, leaving the rocks beneath exposed. Then, the tide brings the sand back, concealing the rocks. You'd never know they were there.
What if the "shifting sands" on the map are concealing something? What could we see if the sand shifted? The end of the cable perhaps?
Just something else to think about.
POSTED: Jul 28 @ 10:20 AM by: nafoute
OK everyone, I've got some rambling thoughts and observations regarding the "UNE INTER???" line. Please bear with me--I haven't put them in any particular order, and I realize that they present competing theories (i.e., mutually exclusive and not to be taken as a whole), but I thought it might be a good idea to at least *try* to identify a few possibilities, as marbal suggested.
--the final letter in "INTER???" appears to be an E with an accent grave (`) above it. Does it look that way to anyone else?
--rather than "UNE INTER???", perhaps it's "UN E INTER???". Meaning that 'E' is the subject and 'INTER???" is a verb or an adjective modifying a masculine subject. (I'm not sure whether French letters are given masculine articles, though, so this would need to be verified. Nafoute, how would you say "an E" in French?) If so, this could also change the role of the final 'E' in "INTER???".
--the 'N' in "UNE" looks a bit funny...the final stroke isn't perpendicular, and it sort of resembles the symbol immediately preceding the equal sign in the third equation (i.e., the equation where the bottom set of arrows point to the word 'radiance'). If the 'N' is a symbol of some sort, then 'U' and 'E' would probably play a part in the equation(s), too.
--the letters U and E also appear in the final line of the pseudo-lyrics: "REGRET BLEUE", so if we determine that there's anything more to them, it may lead us to more clues.
I may not be explaining myself very well here, so please feel free to jump in!
all the letters of the alphabet are masculine in french
POSTED: Jul 28 @ 10:22 AM by: ratchinka
what if the lotto numbers, are the latitude, longitude?
48*15min 16* 23min
42, since it is a "special" one is the people, polar bears.........
if you go here, about half way down the page, there is "view the Earth" you can enter longitude and latitude. I chose south and got inbetween africa and australia. But I don't really know anything about this stuff.
Didn't Sayid walk thru at the end of the show, "noises, winds" like mentioned on one of the maps?
POSTED: Jul 31 @ 11:44 AM by: Sointuit
Sointuit, intriguing idea about Rafiot/Epave! What's the connection? Hmmm... Just as interesting is the idea that it could have been drawn/annotated by two different people. How can we confirm that there are two handwriting styles?
Rafiot vs. epave would perhaps indicate two (French speaking) people's different perspective of a wreck, if they are the same wreck.
If they are different wrecks and Danielle only drew the two maps, then you could assume she was differentiating (sp) between the two.
I think a rafiot is still navigable, while an epave is a total loss.
There's another thread that talks about the two people map possibility. If you look at the Shannon pop-up map the number 2 is particularly written 2 different ways. Haven't examined the Rafiot one, but clearly with ALEX written on it you can be fairly certain Dani had a hand in it.
posted this in the other Danielle map thread. Know some French but can't offer much more than what's been offered.
POSTED: Jul 31 @ 12:40 PM by: marbalbc
I just double checked the translations for rafiot and epaves.
Rafiot refers to a 'tub'. Epave refers to a 'wreck'.
I wonder if Rafiot could be a reference to 'the others' little boat? Epave is likely the crash site of Danielle's vessel. Are they both marked on the same area of the map, or two different locations?
POSTED: Jul 31 @ 01:02 PM by: Sointuit
Are they both marked on the same area of the map, or two different locations?
I just compared the two maps. I'd have to say its exactly the same location. So they must be the same vessel, that is boat, not blimp, since there is a drawing of one?
Not to say its Danielle's vessel or not, just not into the blimpy theory.
POSTED: Jul 31 @ 01:33 PM by: marbalbc
Thanks, sointuit.
Do you have a link to the maps you're comparing? I don't think I'm thinking of the same ones.
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POSTED: Jul 31 @ 02:41 PM by: marbalbc
Oh, okay...I see what you're talking about. I was thinking there were two sets of overhead maps labelled differently.
So, we've got the sketch of the island, plus the overhead maps. Probably two different artists, two different perspectives of the same thing. But which drawing belongs to who? What came first, the chicken or the egg?
It completes the triangle shown. Originally I thought this had something to with drawing maps.
Triangulation, as invented by Gemma Frisius around 1533, consists of making such direction plots of the surrounding landscape from two separate standpoints. After that, the two graphing papers are superimposed, providing a scale model of the landscape, or rather the targets in it. The true scale can be obtained by just measuring one distance both in the real terrain and in the graphical representation.
Now with the bottom line of the triangle shown the dashed "path" shown below this I'm not so sure. Somehow Danielle found the radio tower so I think that might be part of this. Most ships of any size would have a lifeboat or dinghy to get to shore since the larger ships wouldn't be able to approach the shore, so there would still be a boat even if here ship was wrecked.
POSTED: Aug 01 @ 12:28 AM by: ordinary_bloke
On the left side of the page, it looks as though someone added a hyphen to "vents d'ouest" making it "d-ouest" Am I looking too hard?
Duckie, the top map is the one we have been discussing all along, right? Just with a bottom flap tucked under? Then if the triangles match up on each sheet, it seems like the map must show a 3D view of the south end of lostie island rather than a whole new island? Not sure. The scale still seems impossible though.
It gives more meaning to the 36 at the base of the triangle too. What do you suppose that broken path indicates?
POSTED: Aug 01 @ 04:28 PM by: LostDuckie7
Bloke - Yes, the top one is the one with the mountain and when they're laid out like this the flap underneath looks like a continuation of this. I agree scales are pretty strange and might not be trusted.
My only guess for the broken path since it's out in the water would be their course. Maybe to get around sandbars, coral reefs?
What's also kind of strange is that they would be on two different pieces. Kind of like you have to have more than one piece to get the complete picture. Security for something? Pirates with treasure maps? Hard to tell at this point.
POSTED: Aug 02 @ 07:28 AM by: LostinBlue
Any evidence of that cable on the maps?
POSTED: Aug 02 @ 08:57 AM by: ELMIRAGE
Any evidence of that cable on the maps?
there are two places indicating lines from the ocean to the shore. one is located on the S E corner of the the island and one on the east shore just above the peninsula. since Sayid showed danielles place to be on the east coast ,I would say thats where the cable is.EL
POSTED: Aug 02 @ 09:55 AM by: ordinary_bloke Yes, the top one is the one with the mountain and when they're laid out like this the flap underneath looks like a continuation of this.
It's really a nice, clear screen cap. The numbers stand out very clearly on this one. If you look at a larger view of the whole island from Quantion's site:
Do you think the triangle in the lower right of that map is the same triangle as on your maps? It looks similar but the larger islet is missing.
It's hard to imagine who would make maps like these (not the mountain view that we've been looking at but the others). Miners, pilots, sailors? It almost seems like it started out as a simple shore-line map with just the largest rivers indicated on it. Then someone came along and sketched in those rib-like things later. Otherwise, the south crater would appear more like a pit with the ridges rising above it. There's no indication on the map that the crater is any higher than the valley? I know I'm not looking at this right, but I just can't get it to pop in place in my mind for some reason.
POSTED: Aug 02 @ 10:39 AM by: LostDuckie7
The triangles look about the same size but shot of the map is from different perspectives also and the don't quite look 'right' to me. On the combined map this map just be an artifact of the combination of different maps. I not a hard core graphics type like some here that do this professionally but if I were to combine two I would make the sections that overlap semi-tranparent and then overlay them, scale them to match. You can get artifacts where they overlay if all the colors/intensities don't match.
BTW, if anyone wants a good graphics program there's a GNU one that's similar called Gimp. You can get it at www.gimp.org and there are version built for Windows. Maybe not as user friendly as the expensive one's but's it's free to use.
I'm at work, west coast time so I don't have a lot links and things to look at here. Maybe a the maps were made by the different groups so they don't all fit. Danielle had them all and might have been trying to tie them all together. Somehow she knew where the Black Rock was and the radio tower when the Others didn't.
Speaking of radio towers sometimes Cargo Cults built airfields and radio towers to try and attract American cargo planes for the goods they brought. There's some articles on the Internet about them that are pretty interesting. One the better known was the John Frum cult. I read an article in a recent issue (3 weeks ago maybe) of Islands magazine in the travel section of bookstore and the remnants of this group still exist in Vanuatu.
POSTED: Aug 05 @ 09:14 AM by: NoNicksinExile
Ok, after some conversation in another thread, I'm more then ever convinced that the "head on" map is simply showing one mountain. Probably the mountain that is causing the compass iregularity?
So was the math simply to figure out how big the mountain was?
Mayhaps Robert didn't draw the map? What if there were miners on the island who drew that? They were trying to figure out what the potential yield might be?
Robert simply found the map and added some things to it?
POSTED: Aug 23 @ 04:03 PM by: An_Dochasach
I've only seen a few episodes of LOST here in Ireland and my major was physics (which is rusty), but this looks like a fun show and a fun puzzle. Here are a couple of wild theories:
The F(x) equation isn't clear enough, but the 0 <= x <= pi could indicate that x (the subject of the function) remains within the circle.(not strictly mathmatically accurate, but hey "LOST" is Hollywood!)
Look at the definition of tangent: http://dict.die.net/tangent. In 2 dimensions a tangent is a point but in 3 dimensions a tangent is a line, (an edge). The double line at the base of the island in the map looks like an edge. It could represent the edge where this world meets the next (Purgatory again?) Map makers regularly represent the world by projecting it to a tangent surface.
The equations with references to tangent and Pi on the map could be used to map the island or determine its location, but I laughed when I heard about polar bear (in celestrial navigation and piloting one often has to convert from cartesian to polar coordinates) by using sin, cos, tangent. The word "Radians" (or french equivalent?) appears on the map, radians are a convenient unit in the polar coordinate system.
Now here is something strange, along the left side of the map is a compass rose and a scale with what appears to be elevation, along the right side is a parallel scale which appears to be latitude. But the compass and latitude do not make any sense the way the map is drawn. You would normally have a top view of the island like this:
N XXxXxx W+E XislandXXX S XXXX
Then latitude would run vertically, longitude would run horizontally like on a normal map. The side view is confusing unless the map's author is dimensionally dyslexic, or the island really isn't "square with the world" but is instead "tangent to the world." That is, what if elevation on the island were the same as latitude on earth? That could explain the polar bear, high elevations on the island are nearest to high latitudes on earth. A tangent to a four dimesional space is a 3 dimensional space. We usually think of the 4th dimension as time. Could the island be a projection of our world's 4 dimensions into a 3 dimensional space where time does not exist?
POSTED: Aug 23 @ 04:14 PM by: captainaeon
"A tangent to a four dimesional space is a 3 dimensional space. We usually think of the 4th dimension as time. Could the island be a projection of our world's 4 dimensions into a 3 dimensional space where time does not exist?"
Hi An! Welcome! Curious if you have read the book "A Wrinkle in Time"? Your statement above reminds me of Charles Wallace (in the book) explaining what a tesseract is.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 09:45 AM by: marbalbc
Hi An - wow! That's a really interesting idea and it seems to fit with the idea of the tangents. I'm not really sure I fully understand what you're saying, but what I do understand, I like! I'm trying to picture how the island would look, as I can't quite get my head around the notion of the elevation as the same as the earth's latitude. Would the island sort of be lying on its side, with the mountains facing north toward the arctic? And would it be 'invisible' when looked at from our perspective? Or are you saying its on another plane or dimension? Or maybe I'm not understanding at all
If your idea is the case, it would have to be easily explained for the majority of people to understand. Is there an easier way to explain it for us 'non-physics' people?
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 11:37 AM by: ELMIRAGE marb. picture the map in your head. as you climb the mountain you are going north not up.it is as if the plane of existance has been rotated 90 degrees. study the map,everything on it points to this theory. the compass rose, the latitude scale and all the other irregularities. anyway thats what poped into my head after reading this.EL
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 11:41 AM by: NoNicksinExile
yeah... The island is a "wrinkle" in time. Like a wormhole.... I like it.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 11:46 AM by: marbalbc
Thanks EL, that's what I was thinking, but not expressing it very well. But would the island then not have to be 'flat' against the earth's surface, so as not to be seen when looking at it from sea level? And would it not then be visible from the sky? This is where I'm having trouble understanding the concept, although I like it.
Theoretically then, if they were to climb the mountains, they should find themselves in the arctic? There are no markings on the latitude scale on the map, so it would be interesting to see what they would be - if the 'height' of the mountain is equal to the latitude of the arctic climates. It would have to be a very tall mountain for it to be in the Northern Hemisphere, with the beach being in the Southern Hemisphere.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 11:50 AM by: captainaeon
Are the implications that the earth exists in 3 dimensional space while the island exists in 2 dimensional space?
Just trying to wrap my brain around it.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 12:06 PM by: ELMIRAGE
the way I see it ,size of the island is not relative to the earth. it is on a different plane. on earths plane the island is nothing more than a line. now whether it can be run into by an airplane is a good question. since there is no up and down,the airplane could be 40,000 feet up and on the island at the same time if it interacted with it.EL
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 12:07 PM by: NoNicksinExile
Marb, no it wouldn't have to be very large at all were it a wormhole.
The idea is that it would be kind of bending space around it, so that the gaps become smaller.
Take out a piece of paper right? Drawl a dot on each end.
They are far apart right? Now fold the paper until the two dots touch.
That's what a worm hole does.
Space = The paper.
The wormhole bends space in such a way that it will bring points closer together.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 12:27 PM by: marbalbc
since there is no up and down,the airplane could be 40,000 miles up and on the island at the same time if it interacted with it
So they all survived the crash because the plane didn't really fall 30,000 feet out of the sky? Interesting thought.
They are far apart right? Now fold the paper until the two dots touch.
So back to the tesseract/wormhole line of thinking - the island itself is either a tesseract or a wormhole... not visible to the eye because it's simply a 2-dimensional dot? or a 3-dimensional line?
Still trying to get my mind wrapped around this idea. I'm so much better if I can see something physical rather than dealing with abstract ideas.
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POSTED: Aug 24 @ 12:46 PM by: NoNicksinExile
Marb, the island probably exists within the wormhole in my opinion. It's not visible because it's currently moving through time, which is effectively NO time, because it could pop back out anywhere, anytime, pretty much.
It IS a hard thing to conceptualize... And it's only theory sooo...
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 12:56 PM by: marbalbc
lol, maybe I'll just stick to my vortex/triangle theory. So much easier to understand!
I do understand your wormhole idea, that's a pretty easy concept. It's what An had to say that confuses me a little. I understand and don't understand all at the same time. I may be confusing myself by trying to make it relate to other theories instead of letting it stand on its own. I hope An comes back to explain it further.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 01:25 PM by: NoNicksinExile
the vortex triangle theory is kind of the same thing isn't it?
Take a look at the picture I drew... it's easier to explain it that way.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 01:37 PM by: marbalbc
Thanks Jason. I think I see what you're getting at. I wonder if that's what An was trying to say. From his/her description, I was thinking of the island as lying flat against the earth's surface, with the mountain pointing toward north.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 02:21 PM by: LostDuckie7
I've sort of been thinking of a parallel worlds type theory where instead of being in a wormhole they would be in a parallel world that split off from our universe. This has been mentioned here before but I haven't seen any discussions of it. Multiple worlds isn't out of the realm of scientific conjecture at least. In one it would still be an ice age with polar bears in this location, another it would be an ocean where the Black Rock was sailing. The wormhole is what really gets more fiction than science but would be necessary for things to move between universes. Moving the Black Rock to another universe where there is an island there could put it where it was found.
This is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation on the many worlds theory of how to explain the difference between the world in quantum physics where nothing is determinate but is expressed as a probability to the classical world that we see and measure where we can know exactly where & when everything is. Quantum physics has never been disproven and is considered a mature field with lot of predictions that have been verified. It has some wierd predictions that don't jive with common sense or classical physics like a measurement being able to effect another particle at a great distance instantly.
On a Nova program called the Elegant Universe they are speculating that gravity may 'leak' between universes and be a way to communicate with them. The idea of matter moving between them is again more fiction than science at this point. Someone awhile back when I first started reading here (around early May) POSTED a link to this program where you can watch it online.
With this line of thought, I'd say the island is like a venus flytrap. A long time ago, something happened to the island (meteor maybe), and now there is a field surrounding it in which time is distorted.
In our normal time/space, you can't see the island, but if you fly over this distorted field, it will pull you in to where you can't escape -- and you disappear from normal space and time. Overlapping time is a possibility, whereas you can have a preserved Black Rock.
This would mean things could be from the future, which gets a little crazy. I guess the security system could be from the future, but would get VERY sci-fi-ish.
***
My personal opinion is that a meteor or whatever has provided some electromagnetic or radioactive field around the island a long time ago, giving visitors supernatural abilities -- strength, mind control, telekinesis, etc. A later group's telekinetic thoughts are the smokey, as they "visualize" doing physical actions on the island like picking up old mining chains and such: the monster. I think there are two groups, one good, one bad; black and white. One group shields the island's discovery, wanting to keep the power. Another tries to reach out and bring help, to put an end to the power struggle.
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 06:19 PM by: An_Dochasach
"A tangent to a four dimesional space is a 3 dimensional space. We usually think of the 4th dimension as time. Could the island be a projection of our world's 4 dimensions into a 3 dimensional space where time does not exist?"
Hi An! Welcome! Curious if you have read the book "A Wrinkle in Time"? Your statement above reminds me of Charles Wallace (in the book) explaining what a tesseract is.
Yes I think Robert Heinlein's "A Wrinkle in time" was the first science fiction novel I ever read. But I'd forgotten about that and was thinking instead of Brian Greene's awesome string theory tutorial "The Elegant Universe" and PBS mini-series based on this book. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant
A couple of other odd things crossed my mind at forever-o-clock after writing my first post. (I don't recommend thinking about this after midnight while jet-lagged, it makes for some wild dreams.)
This thread involving the equations on the map is interesting: http://forums.go.com/abc/primetime/lost/thread?threadID=401298 (EXPIRED THREAD LINK) As you'd expect the equations involve spherical trigonometry, pythagorean theorem... but this would be expected for any celestial navigation. Navigating the intersection between two spaces would require this and more. Intersecting spaces would easily explain a compass being off and though the episode hasn't made it to Ireland, I heard there was a sphere in the sky? Maybe that is where our universe touches this one.
If latitude in earth space represents elevation in island space, maybe the other coordinates are rotated also. Couldn't the 4th dimension (time) be transposed to physical space so that when you walk around the island you are moving in earth time? I have no proof though and I prefer the "timeless space" theory because that more closely matches what I understand of Roman Catholic "purgatory."
Wait a minute... Holy cow! Look at the top view of the island from one of her other drawings and then look at Brian Greene's representation of strings.
O.K. here is an oversimplified string theory intro. Contrary to popular opinion, physicists like to simplify things. So in classical physics, everything is made of points. This makes the math easy (heh) but our universe seems to be made of tiny vibrating strings. (like circular guitar strings). The frequency of vibration determines how the particle behaves. An F# vibrating string might look like a "strange quark" to us while a G string might be a "down quark." Read Brian Greene's book and you'll appreciate the beauty of numbers and music in our universe.
Incidently followers of Pythagoras also believed that there was a relationship between music, mathmatics, and the universe. Google search "Pythagoreans" or "music of the spheres" to find out more.
I wish I'd seen Hurley's "Numbers" episode. I heard that it had something to do with the 'random' numbers which used to be heard on shortwave radio. There are so many possibilies. The above mentioned equation may be related. If represented as latitude and longitude I suppose it could be near micronesia. But the first thing I noticed was that the sequence started with "4" which sounds like "death" in Japanese and Chinese. Then it proceeds to "8" which means great fortune. Then 13 which is the christian unlucky number (13 at the last supper...). I don't know about 23, but 42 is obviously the answer to life the universe and everything.
Did anyone else notice a few notes of what sounds like "Amazing grace" occasionally in the background music? "I once was LOST but now..."
This show is either really creative, or randomly mysterious in such a way that it brings out the creativity in all of our imaginations!
Now onto some more really crazy dreams. Goodnight everyone.
(I almost wish the creators didn't think of any of this so I could write something based on it!)
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 07:50 PM by: captainaeon
Yes I think Robert Heinlein's "A Wrinkle in time" was the first science fiction novel I ever read.
I was referring to Madeline L'Engle's book (It will come up in the show). Are both books about the same wrinkle???
The numbers are 4 8 15 16 23 42--I don't think I'll spoil anything for you by telling them to you
POSTED: Aug 24 @ 09:29 PM by: cac120
An! Welcome to the board and where were you when the Wrinkle in Time thread was alive?
An: A tangent to a four dimensional space is a 3 dimensional space. We usually think of the 4th dimension as time. Could the island be a projection of our world's 4 dimensions into a 3 dimensional space where time does not exist?
Capt: Are the implications that the earth exists in 3 dimensional space while the island exists in 2 dimensional space? Could it be a 5 dimensional space (a tesseract)? Or is this merely how one moves between dimensions?
NoNicks: Take out a piece of paper right? Drawl a dot on each end. They are far apart right? Now fold the paper until the two dots touch.
I remember Fed explaining it the same way.
marb: So they all survived the crash because the plane didn't really fall 30,000 feet out of the sky? Interesting thought.
I do believe that's the ONLY way they could have survived.
marb: So back to the tesseract/wormhole line of thinking - the island itself is either a tesseract or a wormhole... not visible to the eye because it's simply a 2-dimensional dot? or a 3-dimensional line?
1st dimension is a line 2nd dimension is a square 3rd dimension is a cube 4th dimension is time 5th dimension is a tesseract
We can only see the first three because we live in a 3-dimensional world. If our world were 4-dimensional, we could see time. Not just the effects of time that we observe, but time itself would be visible. Is that right, An?
NoNicks: the vortex triangle theory is kind of the same thing isn't it?
I think so. It's a way of locating the wormholes/portals, isn't it? I believe that the numbers serve this purpose.
An: As you'd expect the equations involve spherical trigonometry, pythagorean theorem... but this would be expected for any celestial navigation. Navigating the intersection between two spaces would require this and more. Intersecting spaces would easily explain a compass being off and though the episode hasn't made it to Ireland, I heard there was a sphere in the sky? Maybe that is where our universe touches this one.
I don't remember any sphere in the sky. During the initial discussion, Ada hinted that the formulae were quantum physics. Is Danielle trying to find a way to pass into another dimension?
An: If latitude in earth space represents elevation in island space, maybe the other coordinates are rotated also. Couldn't the 4th dimension (time) be transposed to physical space so that when you walk around the island you are moving in earth time?
Could time be moving at a different speed on the island while seeming to move at the same time as in our world?
An: Wait a minute... Holy cow! Look at the top view of the island from one of her other drawings and then look at Brian Greene's representation of strings.
Could you explain this again, please and tell me which map you're looking at?
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 10:16 AM by: ELMIRAGE
hey all, I believe the sphere is the object in Danielle's equation map, hovering above the crater. EL
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POSTED: Aug 25 @ 10:38 AM by: LostDuckie7
El, I think you're right, the sphere is what was being assumed was a meteor above the crater in Danielle's map.
Cac,
We can only see the first three because we live in a 3-dimensional world. If our world were 4-dimensional, we could see time.
Could time be moving at a different speed on the island while seeming to move at the same time as in our world?
Some versions of quantum multiverses assume time is the same for all universes. In one of the wikepedia links for the string theory version it said physics could be entirely different. I'm still learning here since I took physics many years ago in college before quarks & string theories.
An,
I love reading this sort of stuff...it involves so much more because of the type of questions they're trying to answer. Physics tied in with philosophy and cosmology. It gives you a whole new appreciation how strange and yet beautiful the world around is.
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 12:34 PM by: cac120
Is it possible that the Whisperers are trapped in another dimension? Could they be touching on the island's dimension enough that their conversations, or thoughts, can be heard, or heard psychically, by people on the island?
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 12:39 PM by: marbalbc
I've thought about that too Cac. I don't see why not.
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 12:53 PM by: LostDuckie7
Is it possible that the Whisperers are trapped in another dimension? Could they be touching on the island's dimension enough that their conversations, or thoughts, can be heard, or heard psychically, by people on the island?
Good point with the whispers. Sounds would be air moving so that reqires something physical (mass) going through. Then they would be able to step thru also. Thoughts fire neurons which would cause very small electromagnetic changes so maybe this is getting thru. There has to be some reason they seem to hear them but they aren't ever there.
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 01:01 PM by: An_Dochasach
Captn' - You're correct Madeline L'Engle's was the author. I also read too many Heinlein books at the same time in my youth.
Yes I'd seen the numbers before and it looks like I mistakingly remembered 13 and forgot 15 and 16.
Numerology makes for a silly religion because you can make it say anything, but it makes for interesting puzzles.
For example, the angle of the earth's access of rotation to its revolution around the sun is 23 degrees. At first I thought Hurley's 23 might be this, but degree is a totally arbitrary unit made by dividing a circle into 360 segments because 360 is a nice round number with many divisors. Radians makes more sense because a circle is expressed in terms of pi which is a physically measurable ratio in our universe. So earth's tilt would be about .401 radians.
If I were the writer, I would mesh chinese numbers, feng shui and pythagorean numerology with many world string theory. After all, why not rely on some fascinating ideas which already exist. Here is a link about Feng Shui & Chinese Numerology: http://www.feng-shui-architects.com/articles-fengshuinumerology.htm
And look what Pythagoras dreamt up on Samos around 580 B.C.: http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~lyman/english233/sg-Bronowski5.htm A. One is Pythagoras' success in providing a foundation for the picture of the world according to which "nature is commanded by numbers." (An alternative image is that numbers are "the language of" nature.) This conception in turn suggested that it might be possible for the human mind to grasp a fundamental unity behind the multifarious variety of appearance encountered in our sensory apprehension of the world. Part of what impressed Pythagoras' followers is that he was able to present convincing demonstrations that this might be true for each of two distinct physical dimensions of the world.
POSTED: Aug 25 @ 01:48 PM by: An_Dochasach
Cac, thanks for the welcome and reply. I honestly haven't seen much of the show but I'd have to say it inspired me.
Probably another red herring, but they reminded me of the string diagrams from Brian Green's book, "The Elegant Universe."
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the sea-shore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." Sir Isaac Newton
POSTED: Aug 26 @ 04:21 PM by: cac120
Duckie, another possibility is that the Whisperers are underground, i.e. in the hatch.
An, from your description of string theory on p. 10, I don't see what your seeing on the maps, but I'll take your word for it. We've been told that Danielle has been working on something, and I think it's a way to get Alex back. It's not always a popular theory, but I believe that Alex tessered to another dimension and is trapped there as a Whisperer.
POSTED: Aug 26 @ 04:51 PM by: captainaeon
Good point with the whispers. Sounds would be air moving so that reqires something physical (mass) going through. Then they would be able to step thru also. Thoughts fire neurons which would cause very small electromagnetic changes so maybe this is getting thru. There has to be some reason they seem to hear them but they aren't ever there.
My theory on the whisperers is they are audio hallucinations produced by low frequency sound waves. I have tried to explain more fully here, if you are interested--
CAC - Underground might work if they're always close enough although I like the idea of thoughts being able to get thru also.
I think An_Dochasach said that about the similarity to something on the map and out of the book if that's what you meant. I don't have the book only the DVD of this series so I don't have the pictures or probally as much theory background.
Every time I start thinking it's something like this I'm my biggest critic...mainly because all the answers have been extremely simple, almost anti-climatic. The BR was a ship, Danielle wanted Aaron, Locke hit Sawyer over the head, etc. If it turns out something like this then a lot of people looking for the more mystical aspect won't like it. I wouldn't be surprised if most answers leave some room for doubt or belief in other possible explanations. That's a fine line they'll have to walk to keep everyone happy.
POSTED: Aug 26 @ 04:57 PM by: LostinBlue
Now here is something strange, along the left side of the map is a compass rose and a scale with what appears to be elevation, along the right side is a parallel scale which appears to be latitude.
Yes. Wondered about this.
That is, what if elevation on the island were the same as latitude on earth?
To quote Jack, "No latitude... no latitude?"
POSTED: Aug 26 @ 09:02 PM by: ELMIRAGE
Now here is something strange, along the left side of the map is a compass rose and a scale with what appears to be elevation, along the right side is a parallel scale which appears to be latitude. Yes. Wondered about this. That is, what if elevation on the island were the same as latitude on earth?
To quote Jack, "No latitude... no latitude?"
blue,this what I said on page 10. marb. picture the map in your head. as you climb the mountain you are going north not up.it is as if the plane of existence has been rotated 90 degrees. study the map,everything on it points to this theory. the compass rose, the latitude scale and all the other irregularities. anyway that's what popped into my head after reading this.EL and then, the way I see it ,size of the island is not relative to the earth. it is on a different plane. on earths plane the island is nothing more than a line. now whether it can be run into by an airplane is a good question. since there is no up and down,the airplane could be 40,000 feet up and on the island at the same time if it interacted with it.EL
POSTED: Aug 27 @ 10:05 AM by: LostinBlue
On the oceanicflight815 site, there is a close up of the triangle on the maps when you Explore Danielle's bunker.
POSTED: Sep 09 @ 08:56 AM by: marbalbc
Just posting something LostDuckie said in the "Episodes Part 7" thread, because I want to keep this info together.
Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 7 POSTED: Sep 08 @ 11:08 PM by: LostDuckie7
The equations on the right side had 3 equations and I've never found or been able to see what was in the bottom one. The top one was the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle and the middle one was the angle. These are also used for for vectors. Same math, the magnitude of the vector is the hypotenuse and the angle is the direction. For example, speed is scaler with no direction such as 10 miles per hour. Velocity is vector and had magnitude & direction, as in 10 miles per hour in a North by Northeast direction. The top and bottom one both point to a word "radiance" or something like that. The double line with the arrow head means "is equivalent to".
On the equations on the left I can't really make out much. What looks like a large cursive L is used for Laplace transform but there isn't much more to but the range of 0 to 2 pi.
Lostduckie-have you any theory as to what these calculations are calculating for, the transmission, island location or function? Do all the calculations appear to be after the same result or different problems? Really appreciate your explanations here though taking a bit of time to grasp it all.
Posted: Sep 15 @ 10:24 AM by: LostDuckie7
No, I've been looking into different things but haven't found anything yet. It seems like it must be a clue that each side of the triangle was written as a fractional part of 500 such as 13/500 (don't have them in front of me now but I remember that as being one). Whatever they were measuring with had a range of 500 and it read 13 out of 500 which would be full scale is what I'm guessing. I saw where French nuclear bomb tests on atolls used several bombs placed 500 meters apart but it didn't make sense that the instruments would only read this distance. I would want to be a lot further away than that.
I'm talking about the equations on the right side where there's 3 and the bottom one isn't really readable. On the left it doesn't look like there's enough there to make much of it. Since the right side equations don't have units (meters, miles, feet, lightyears, etc) the 500 part must be big clue as to what they're measuring. It could be something in the scale with very large distances or triangulating to radio tower and then it would be relatively small.
I haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned.
My mom and her family are french, but I was raised with the English language, for the most part. But I recognize the word, 'Interdite', which might be what we are seeing on the map. So that word can be translated, as something taboo, or off limits, out of bounds.
And eleve, and mean, "to lift up', which I thought was interesting, considering what Desmond said to Jack. Lift it up. I had a feeling that had a double entendre.
Posted: Sep 27 @ 06:47 PM by: LostinBlue
And eleve, and mean, "to lift up', which I thought was interesting, considering what Desmond said to Jack. Lift it up. I had a feeling that had a double entendre.
Interesting! Great connection.
Posted: Oct 01 @ 12:26 AM by: marbalbc
An Dochasach suggested this: Then latitude would run vertically, longitude would run horizontally like on a normal map. The side view is confusing unless the map's author is dimensionally dyslexic, or the island really isn't "square with the world" but is instead "tangent to the world." That is, what if elevation on the island were the same as latitude on earth? That could explain the polar bear, high elevations on the island are nearest to high latitudes on earth. A tangent to a four dimesional space is a 3 dimensional space. We usually think of the 4th dimension as time. Could the island be a projection of our world's 4 dimensions into a 3 dimensional space where time does not exist
ELMIRAGE further elaborated
picture the map in your head. as you climb the mountain you are going north not up.it is as if the plane of existence has been rotated 90 degrees. study the map,everything on it points to this theory. the compass rose, the latitude scale and all the other irregularities. anyway that's what popped into my head after reading this. and then, the way I see it ,size of the island is not relative to the earth. it is on a different plane. on earths plane the island is nothing more than a line. now whether it can be run into by an airplane is a good question. since there is no up and down,the airplane could be 40,000 feet up and on the island at the same time if it interacted with it.
In watching the DVD's, I noticed something. Well, I put two and two together and it added up to the island being 'elevated'.
Jack is talking to Rose, and she explains that she wears Bernard's ring on a chain because his fingers swell when they fly. Jack responds with a comment about it being the altitude.
Sayid gives Shannon a pair of shoes that he found, and she comments that this place 'makes her feet swell' for some reason.
That reason? Altitude of course. Since they are on a beach, they are obviously at sea level - or are they?
Is this something else to support the idea that they are on another 'higher altitude' plane or dimension? ----- Oct. 4/05 I'm wondering if the mural has anything to add to what's on the maps?
Posted: Oct 04 @ 10:09 AM by: pssrailguy
I've read many of the posts, here, but there are too many...so forgive me if someone else has already stated this.
I noticed on the map the following expression:
F(x) = OL (the L is inderlined) x L (underlined) times pi
There is some other mathmateical notation that I am unfamiliar with preceding this equation.
So here are my thoughts:
I know that some people debunked the "radiance" early in the post. For now, though, lets assume that it does say radiance. Knowing that there is a magnet on the "island", that Danielle has been there for many, many years, and that Danielle is a scientist - could these be equations for calculating the electromagnetic force associated with the island?
If not, does anyone know what the "pi" equation might represent?
Posted: Oct 04 @ 10:19 AM by: marbalbc
Yes, it was one of the things brought up, and I'm still convinced it has something to do with radiance, and quite possibly the magnetic or electro-magnetic force.
Posted: Oct 04 @ 10:33 AM by: LostDuckie7
rail guy - I think where you're looking it's 0 <= x <= pi, where the <= is written as an underlined <. This is common to give the range so x is evaluated from 0 to pi. There's not a lot more given beside this so it's hard to make much of it. To the left of the range it looks like an integral sign and then to left of that the cursive F & L which can be used for Laplace & Fourier tranforms. These are used in signal theory, basically analog radio waves, which are electromagnetic waves.
I'm not sure how much this map from oceanic air can be trusted. I made a screen cap from the first season (it's at home now so I can't get at it) but on the equations on the right side the bottom, the bottom one with the square root sign there's stuff written there before the arrow that appears to be erased or not visible on the ocean-air map. I couldn't read it at all but it looked different. Possibly units of measurement which could be a big hint.
Posted: Oct 04 @ 10:37 AM by: pssrailguy
Thanks Lostduckie
In a previous life, i was a bit of a math geek, but that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away...
Realizing that I know just enough to be dangerous, it seems as though some of the equations on the map resemble some of the Laplace equations on the wikipedia site.
Posted: Oct 04 @ 11:14 AM by: marbalbc
Also added this to my original post.
A new thought. Cote Sauvage - Savage/Wild Coast - I previously assumed that this would refer to a place on the island that is completely wild and savage (flora and fauna). But that really applies to the whole island as we know it. After seeing the end of S2.2,could this really refer to the side of the island where people have become Savages?
Posted: Oct 04 @ 11:43 AM by: pssrailguy
...and what about the "Crater"? Where is it? What does it look like? HOW DID IT GET THERE?
I can only think of two possibilities for how the crater formed:
1. many islands are the result of previously active volcanoes. Thus, the crater on this island could be an extinct volcano; or
2. some type of meteor (I'm sorry, meteroite) crashed into the island sometime (?) in the past.
The first seems very logical...but this IS Lost we are talking about. Could the island's man-made structures be the result of a metorite landing on the island?
We must remember that Danielle is a scientist and she very well may be lying to the losties about why she is there (or is just flipping crazy and cannot discerm the differences between reality and her own mind any more).
What am I trying to get at? Before I go further, this is just another theory that I'm not sure I even believe, but I'll state it nonetheless:
A meteor(ite) crashed into the island x number of years ago (maybe 16). A scientific mission organized by Dharma (no, not reverse vampires) was sent to study the meteorite (Danielle might have been a part of that mission). It was determined during their initial studies that whatever was in the meteorite must not leave the island. To ensure this never happended, Dharma built the bunker facility.
Just one of many plausible theories running through my brain.
The 'ball' within the field reminds me of that object in the sky over the island on the map. I'm not clear on whether the 'ball' is the EM field itself, or something suspended within an EM field.
Could the formulas be calculating the strength of the field?
The 'ball' within the field reminds me of that object in the sky over the island on the map. I'm not clear on whether the 'ball' is the EM field itself, or something suspended within an EM field.
Could the formulas be calculating the strength of the field?
Was that picture was from the film they watched? It looks like the things on the left and right would be large coils around some metal shafts to generate 2 opposing magnetic (one aspect of electromagnet) fields and this is what he's seeing in the middle. I'm not sure why we're able to see it other than it wouldn't be a very interesting picture if we couldn't.
Maxwell combined electric fields with magnetic to come up with a unified electromagnetic theory and everything starts with the 4 Maxwell equations:
Under summary, general you see all 4 with integral signs drawn with circles. This means evaluate around a complete path beginning to end, usually a circle being the simplest so that would be the 0 < x < 2 pi. There's just not enough there there (not a typo) to evaluate something more specific. Certainly could be telling us that's it's alluding to EM fields and this makes a lot of sense to me, it's just the how you apply them that I'm stuck with. When you push something you're using EM force between atoms in your hand & atoms in what you're pushing. Increase this somehow and tree's are pushed up, etc. It's the how part I don't get at all yet.
I'm still thinking the ball on the map is the satellite that someone saw and tried to locate. The right hand equations are geometry and I don't think apply to the fields.
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(Date Posted:12/03/2005 16:03:37)
Posted: Oct 06 @ 12:29 PM by: ordinary_bloke
Mar, your discovery of the word "reflects" in the lyrics may have more meaning now too in light of all the mirrors down there? It doesn't seem like the original designers would make something that elaborate just to see who's at the door. If you isolate a poor soul down there and surround him with unfamiliar equipment, maybe over the years he will invent uses for it? Try to figure it all out and get it all wrong? (kinda like us. lol) Use it in the wrong way, but adopt it in the daily grind anyway? So maybe there's another use for the system that the lyrics will reveal?
Posted: Oct 08 @ 08:25 PM by: LostinBlue
Anyone look at the map and lyrics in light of what we learned about Dharma?
New insights on who drew the map? Any relation between the areas of study and some of the labelled areas of the map? The lyrics? Any evidence of the existence of the hatches on the map?
Has the thread been archived in preparation of it going *poof*?
Posted: Oct 09 @ 10:28 AM by: marbalbc
Hi Blue - Yes, I've copied the thread to review and condense into some key points.
I've been considering the map also in terms of its 'landmarks' and relation to DHARMA.
So far, I've come up with Cote Sauvage = Savage Coast (separate thread), as being the area where people have become savage - perhaps a backlash to the 'utopian society'. Or it could be the area of psychic research, which affected the minds of the people making them violent and paranoid.
The area with the 'ball' suspended in the sky, I now believe to be the area of EM activity.
Bay of Crabs - possibly bio-research?
Coral Reefs - where Desmond crashed?
Posted: Oct 10 @ 03:17 PM by: Adawhen
Shivering sand or Moving sand is the old name for quicksand. Marl, great great thinking on the Cote Sauvage!
by: njerseygal (14 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 19, 2005
Resurrecting an old thread, hoping for more input
I don't post very often because I often don't have anything too valuable to say! lol But I was looking at the map and was thinking that the word that looks like "internuite" could possibly be "eternity" spelled "eternite" in French. The only think that disputes this in the "i" and "n" in the beginning of the word. Unless that means something else. Well, this could be a useless post but I thought I'd chime in anyway!
Re: Danielle's Map, the Lyrics and the Formulas
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