by: blissfullylost (195 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Feb 17, 2005
I know some of you never make it out of this thread, for good reason src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> so I thought I would share this here.
It is definitely a SPOILER! So don't look if you don't want to be spoiled, someone took pics when they were filming an Ana Lucia flashback!
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
I know some of you never make it out of this thread, for good reason src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> so I thought I would share this here.
It is definitely a SPOILER! So don't look if you don't want to be spoiled, someone took pics when they were filming an Ana Lucia flashback!
Yes-- FWIW, proves some folk's theories correct! There will be some pride come that chapter's exhibition. My respect for the Lost writers took a great leap after ....In Translation last season. That episode was one of the first to really track a parallel backstory from a different point of view. That addition established Jin as so much more than a stereotypical paternally dominating Asian male.
And while there were lots of complaints about the first three episodes' retracing the same timeline in the hatch, I thoroughly enjoyed the "different POV" do-overs. It looks like there will be plenty more of those to come....
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
When this was written, it was speculation, but now we should call it a
S P O I L E R :
Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 8 Posted: Oct 20 @ 07:12 AM by: Massed615 (9 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 07, 2005
Just wondering do we know where the air marshall was sitting on the plane or if they survived? One thing i noticed about the woman from the tail enders who was thrown in the pit w/ sawyer mike and jin is the way she held the gun. it was held like she was either armed forces or police. When sawyer raised the gun on the raft he did it with one hand as any person would most likely do, but when the woman in the pit held it she used her off hand to brace her other hand, like police do. Is it possible she might be the air marshal or at least a cop?
What about Cindy? Ana-Lucia sends her off to scout with Eko instead of putting her on food gathering duty like everyone else. What makes a flight attendant more suited to scouting than food gathering? Perhaps she's proven herself to be capable of defending herself also.
If either one of them is the air marshall, she will certainly know something about Kate's past.
by: The_Original_G_Man (684 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
What about Cindy? Ana-Lucia sends her off to scout with Eko instead of putting her on food gathering duty like everyone else. What makes a flight attendant more suited to scouting than food gathering? Perhaps she's proven herself to be capable of defending herself also.
It could be something as simple as she is a hunter back home, I suppose.
by: The_Original_G_Man (684 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
Haven't been on here much the last few days, but does anybody know if Mars/A ever commented on why they darkened that shot of the shark so that you couldn't see the dharma logo?
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
What about Cindy? Ana-Lucia sends her off to scout with Eko instead of putting her on food gathering duty like everyone else. What makes a flight attendant more suited to scouting than food gathering? Perhaps she's proven herself to be capable of defending herself also.
I'm still leaning toward the camp that suspects Cindy, the Flight Attendant is in on something sinister.
I mean sure, she offers Jack a couple extra bottles of "juice", but does she offer Charlie any extra drugs? No-- she practically acts as though it's illegal!
Huh? What's that....? Oh, ahhh...., never mind....
But watch out for Cindy; she's got more than trust issues....
by: inthehaze (301 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 17, 2004
A few random thoughts before I go to bed:
Teddy & Tie:
fannymay: The teddy bear carried by one of the "others" has a tie wrapped around its leg.
If you enlarge the screen cap of the bear being dragged (although I thought it was THE tie at first also) you'll notice that it is a natural material such as a palm frond or reed......
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Fed - posed a question to A regarding Marshal, Marshal, Marshal......
She was cryptic but said that Marshal was a very unprofessional.....
Dirty - Under investigation? Being tailed by Ana?
Is that why she left Jack when she got the call on the cell phone at the bar?
Tailing and talking to her superior about Marshal?
or in Cahoots with Marshal, Marshal, Marshal and he was on the other end of the call?
I like that.
It did seem as though the Marshall with Kate had some kind of personal vendetta against her. He also said something about her fooling him like she does to every man...could he also have been personally involved with her?
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: What about Cindy? Ana-Lucia sends her off to scout with Eko instead of putting her on food gathering duty like everyone else. What makes a flight attendant more suited to scouting than food gathering? Perhaps she's proven herself to be capable of defending herself also.
I thought it was maybe because A/L thinks Cindy is the most expendable... like canary down a mine shaft. "Yeah, send Cindy in with the team scouting for safety... while they're busy going after her, the rest of us will have time to RUN!"
OR, it might be that Cindy has something about her that is "special" that would make her a good choice fo scouting... such as exceptional eyesight, or something. She figured out there was something funky going on with Charlie on the plane.
I don't think there's anything "sinister" going on with Cindy though.
So, where do you think A/L is from? I don't mean heritage... but.. assuming she's from the US, considering how she talks, accent, phrasing, attitude... where do you think she's from? Just curious.
by: blissfullylost (195 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Feb 17, 2005
So, where do you think A/L is from? I don't mean heritage... but.. assuming she's from the US, considering how she talks, accent, phrasing, attitude... where do you think she's from? Just curious.
SPOILER
I edited this because someone thought the cop car had Oakland wrote on it, but after I looked at it, it looks like it says "Dedicated" where they thought Oakland was wrote?
Here is the picture of the cop car, I'm not sure what it says,it does look like CA plates? I think they left the city blank for a purpose src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
I am officially caught up now. no, really, hold your applause!
i have many things to say, but i am going to divy them up with different posts to help break it up...here goes.
Can't figure out why in the world with all those weapons to choose from, Kate would pick the "messiest" one! Mingo
I don't believe Kate does ANYTHING without completely thinking it through. As experienced as we know she is, she could have eyeballed that rack of weapons in 2 **** and known exactly what did what. She chose the shotgun for a reason. One
My thought was that she looked and saw something familiar. She didn't just grab it for it's size, and she didn't falter once about how to load it and with what ammunition. She KNEW this weapon
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
When I think of all those guns on the island, I think of Alvar Hanso and his career of being a munitions magnet, and what was said on the Hanso site about him always looking for the latest technologies in security. I still think one of the major underlying (or overlying) "projects" for the Dharma Initiative was to discover a super weapon/security system that Hanso could market to the world. ME
I completely agree. His history doesn't mesh with the DeGroots agenda. Like many of you have posted and discussed about, there is a strange union with these two! But each probably sees (saw) each other as a way to a means...or a means to a way, whichever!
But does the end always justify the means? I would think that Alvar Hanso would be in the camp that says yes, anything is OK if there is success in the end. The DeGroots however, I would suggest are in the other camp. NO, the end does NOT always justify the means...and I think they found out how they were being used and rebelled, quit (or tried) or something...that could be the ?something' that happened.
Or maybe it is just how one of the many fractions on the island occurred. Are they the whisperers? I just don't know. We've got so many people floating around on this island...
this next part will go with some of my pet Tesla stuff...but it applies to this topic...
."Tesla inherited from his father a deep hatred of war. Throughout his life, he sought a technological way to end warfare. Given that Tesla's inventions generally possessed an element of social conscience, of doing good for humanity, it may seem surprising that he created a number of devices with military applications. "
Interesting thought here about how Tesla seems to be a crisscross of both Hanso and the DeGroots. Back to my ways/means/means to an end idea...sometimes we want something badly enough that we to have to compromise in certain areas to get it done. Maybe BOTH Hanso and the DeGroots compromised their sole agendas and found a way to get them both initiated...but one seems to have gone awry.
by: The_Original_G_Man (684 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
My thought was that she looked and saw something familiar. She didn't just grab it for it's size, and she didn't falter once about how to load it and with what ammunition. She KNEW this weapon
Part of me thinks Kate would not have hesitated to use that thing, regardless of who would get caught as part of the collateral damage. (ie: Jack, Locke ... sorry, JATERS src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> )
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
Something I posted earlier: ...and what about the "Crater"? Where is it? What does in look like? HOW DID IT GET THERE? I can only think of two possibilities for how the crater formed: 1. many islands are the result of previously active volcanoes. Thus, the crater on this island could be an extinct volcano; or 2. some type of meteor (I'm sorry, meteroite) crashed into the island sometime (?) in the past. The first seems very logical...but this IS Lost we are talking about. Could the islands man-made structures be the result of a metorite landing on the island? This also assumes that Danielle's map is indeed correct...Pssrailguy
And...
Good evening, Ya'll (from the south) I am revisiting the meteorite/geophysical/electromagnetic theories during our forced break. Haven't reached any conclusions worth posting. I believe there were some references to the incident in Siberia (1908) that flattened the trees (meteorite/UFO/?) either in a previous section of this thread or perhaps A mentioned something. I would appreciate a link or any further info on this. In searching this and other boards, I have been unable to find any references (is this simply of figment of my imagination?) Thanks and keep up the great work! Ya'll are pretty incredible. (sorry no credit given) And... Where would the massive magnetic field come from? One that could affect compasses all over the island? Sneaker
And...
Basically, you need deuterium (found in salt water) and tritium (which can be made from lithium in the fusion reactor. lithium can be found in the earth's crust.) To heat the particles up you use magentic force to keep the plasma moving and keep it from touching the walls of the container. The walls of the reaction chamber become heated from the energy given off inside. The heat transfers through a water cooling loop to make steam. The steam drives electrical turbines to produce electricity. Lost in blue brought over from another thread.
Ok. We all have our pet theories. And you all know, I'm sure that I'm pretty partial to the Death Ray/Tesla theory. I know that someone said that there was no clear evidence to support his testing of the DR and the Tunguska incedent (hmm just realized that that word ?incendent' is used for both this and by Dr. Candle)...but remember that this show IS fictional. I mean there are tons and tons of ?inspirations' that the writers have used...none of which are fully used in their exact nature (ie: Montauk). Experiments? Yes. Montauk-like? Yes. Dharma Initiative? No such ?real' thing.
There is a ton about what was going on in the world at the time of Tesla's inventions and such that is so closely tied in to what we've been being shown in Lost. My liking of the Tesla/DR thing is not soley because of him or my like/intrigue of him...shoot i'm no scientist! didn't even know who he was until we were pointed to that machine in locke's room and ME found the connection. and at the time it DID get a nod and a nudge from A.
i won't go into it all a bunch AGAIN, but the link i will provide is from PBS (highly respected source of legit, factual information). There is so much info that links/ties/connects with our Lost story it is scary...AND the mystery and intrigue of his papers and the super duper classified FBI/CIA documents (which they have links to)...there is just so much! Check it out!
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
Hoping that pasting the quote leaves the spaces for a spoiler...Ack! It doesn't
SPOILER QUOTED BELOW
I don't think those are CA license plates. The current CA plates are white with blue writing, but the "California" written in red above the letters is pretty prominent, I would think that you'd be able to at least see that there was something red written there, but maybe not.
In any case, the arrangement of letters and numbers doesn't match CA's convention for cars, which for regular cars is #XXX### (e.g. 4ABC123).
What's more, police and government cars usually have a octagon (!!!) shape as the first character, with an E in the middle for exempt.
Don't ya wish we had those *magic* computers that they have on CSI, so we could just select "sharpen," and even the smallest detail would come into perfect focus? LOL.
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
OH! i almost forgot...how's this for tying Tesla to our story?????
he and Lord Kelvin...well, here...read this:
The Niagara Falls Power Project was an act of pure technological optimism. Since his childhood, Tesla himself had dreamed of harnessing the power of the great natural wonder. And in late 1893, his dream became a reality, when Westinghouse was awarded the contract to create the powerhouse.
The contract came as a result of a failed competition spearheaded by the international Niagara Falls Commission. At the head of the commission was Lord Kelvin, the famous British physicist, who had been as opposed to alternating current (discovered and patented by Tesla) as Edison until he attended the Chicago Exposition. Now, a strong convert to AC, Kelvin and his commission asked Westinghouse to use alternating current to harness the power of the falls.
The construction period was traumatic for engineers, mechanics and workers, but it weighed most heavily on investors. Project backers included several of the wealthiest men in America and Europe, including: J. P. Morgan, John Jacob Astor, Lord Rothschild, and W. K. Vanderbilt. After a five-year nightmare of doubt and financial crises, the project approached completion. Tesla had not doubted the results for a moment. The investors, however, were not at all sure the system would work. While the machines were running smoothly in Tesla's three-dimensional imagination, they were still unproved and expensive. But the worries were unwarranted. When the switch was thrown, the first power reached Buffalo at midnight, November 16, 1896.
Here is a poem that he dedicated to his friend. It was called "Fragments of Olympian Gossip" and poked vitriolic fun at the scientific establishment of the day.
Poem, "Fragments of Olympian Gossip"
While listening on my cosmic phone I caught words from the Olympus blown. A newcomer was shown around; That much I could guess, aided by sound. "There's Archimedes with his lever Still busy on problems as ever. Says: matter and force are transmutable And wrong the laws you thought immutable." "Below, on Earth, they work at full blast And news are coming in thick and fast. The latest tells of a cosmic gun. To be pelted is very poor fun. We are wary with so much at stake, Those beggars are a pest?no mistake." "Too bad, Sir Isaac, they dimmed your renown And turned your great science upside down. Now a long haired crank, Einstein by name, Puts on your high teaching all the blame. Says: matter and force are transmutable And wrong the laws you thought immutable." "I am much too ignorant, my son, For grasping schemes so finely spun. My followers are of stronger mind And I am content to stay behind, Perhaps I failed, but I did my best, These masters of mine may do the rest. Come, Kelvin, I have finished my cup. When is your friend Tesla coming up." "Oh, quoth Kelvin, he is always late, It would be useless to remonstrate." Then silence?shuffle of soft slippered feet? I knock and?the bedlam of the street. Nikola Tesla, Novice
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
that info that ME found on Hugo (the real one...). It mentioned his Calvinist roots and his departure from their predestination beliefs...
Just FYI Calvin College is in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It was originally the seminary for Calvinist Ministers...
Another Michigan connection. That and the name DeGroot reminds of the name DeVos. I am from there and that area of Michigan has a large Dutch population...don't know what that means, but the Michigan and the Calvin/Kelvin connected pops up again.
by: annipadanni (19 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
ok! this is my last one...I promise!
Regarding the abandoment conversation she had with Thomas, I always found that turn in the story a bit hard to swallow. How does he come home and so rapidly start pulling away? I really sensed an ulterior motive on his part- as though someone else was pushing him into leaving her to manipulate her actions (same folks who supply the pens in the law office). Sneaker
Remember how it's been suggested that maybe one parent of each of these 'special' people is actually on the Dharma payroll? i wonder is Thomas is too?
it is strange how the only two 2nd generation children (that we KNOW of at this time)...Walt and Aaron had such similar beginnings...and yet exact opposite.
Thomas didn't wan't to stick around, was worried about continuing with his art (which is interesting for other reasons...ie. the mural), but Claire wanted him to stay.
Susan wanted Micheal to go. Micheal wanted to stay and be a fther and was willing to give up his art.
I just thought it interesting the parallel.
there. those are my thoughts to this point. thanks for the brain exercises!
by: chenmeina (30 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
I feel like I'm several pages late with my comments, so I'll only post the stuff that feels like it hasn't been said on these topics in the past few days...
The discussion on pages 25 and 26 about Claire and the psychic and why he put her on Flight 815... I agree with ME that it seems like the psychic knows the plane will crash... and it will be interesting to see if he knows that from someone else's reading... if that is someone who was going to die during the crash, then he would believe Claire and the baby would die... if that is someone who was going to survive the crash, then who knows how much he saw and what he believed would happen to her and the baby? Like Charlie believed, did the psychic believe that then Claire would raise the baby so it wouldn't be raised by another? I don't know... The other thing about the psychic, the baby, and Claire is that I feel like we had direction (of the purple sort) last year that the danger/evil we thought surrounds the baby if it is raised by another may be our misunderstanding of what the psychic was seeing. Does anyone else remember this, or is it a product of too much LOST on the brain? Is the danger and darkness really surrounding Claire (not the baby) if she doesn't raise it herself?
On the Huig de Groot stuff, from the link ME posted:
Shortly after his arguments for the liberty of the sea, Grotius became involved in disputes with the Calvinists. Grotius sided against predestination and Calvinism and took up the Arminian cause of free will. He publicly claimed that Calvinist beliefs could have political and religious dangers to Protestantism. Grotius tried to devise a formula for peace that did not go against Calvinism. His attempts failed and ultimately led to his imprisonment.
To me the predestination versus free will stuff that seems to define Grotius translates into LOST language as "Fate" or "Destiny" versus "Choice". We saw a lot of that in the last few episodes of last season, and it seems like it might even parallel the "Faith" versus "Science" theme we saw at the beginning of this season. Since this name is connected to the DeGroots, I would guess we will find in them the "Choice" way of viewing the world, not the "Fate" way...
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Posting this here to get some feedback:
Some odd info I found while researching potential names for Pluto's new moons (which I suspect will be Cerberus, for the three-headed dog guarding Hades, and Tartarus, a deep pit in Hades where oath-breaking gods would be imprisoned for a time).
There is a very strange story in Greek mythology connected with all of this. The initiate must struggle through the dark forest to find the River Styx and the strange gray boatman Charon. The forest is deep and dark. It represents meditation and the struggle to avoid the howling and creeping thoughts of the mind which distract us and frighten us from our goal. We must find the golden bough because Charon will not allow us into the boat unless we have the the golden bough.
Before you can get to Hades or to the place of the next world where wisdom will be given you must find a golden bough growing in the forest on a tree. Only with this in hand will you be admitted to the next world.
The golden bough is the Pineal on fire. It is also the mythological Golden Fleece. The tree is your body. Going into the body is going into the great wilderness of trees. It is the place of the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of Genesis. It seems impossible to find anything.
I seek and sit in the darkness of the inner forest and find nothing.
But suddenly in the dark forest will come two doves. The birds of Venus. The higher place of love. They fly slowly within you and you follow them. Sometimes the experience is so brief. Just a glimpse.
Suddenly you come to Lake Avernus, a dark foul smelling sheet of water where there is a cavern where the road leads to the deeper place. That foul smelling water is the truth which is polluted by the systems of the world.
But right there , where all seemed so low, and all seemed to be lost, the doves suddenly soared up to a tree where on a bough was a bright yellow glean. It is the golden bough within you. Now you can move across the river to the other side to the place of wisdom and understanding.
--------------------
FWIW, but the analogy of having to move through the forest is intriguing.
On the same web page (near the top) there is a mention of one of the three judges sould meet after they cross the river Styx: Rhadamanthys That name has some interesting anagrams....
Great catch, cap!! I'd say that means the other car would have to be from CA too. This doesn't actually surprise me - that's where I was thinking she might be from... where she might have lived, I mean. I don't want to spoil anyone who doesn't want to be spoiled (and I know not everyone wants to be), so trying to not say too much.
cap:To me the predestination versus free will stuff that seems to define Grotius translates into LOST language as "Fate" or "Destiny" versus "Choice".
Absolutely, cap! I definitely agree. Those were my thoughts too when I read and posted that info!
by: lostintexasusa (20 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 01, 2005
cac: the screen shot you posted highlighting the 'V' in the window of Jin's apartment/refrigerator is really weird! There are V's ALL OVER that screen shot! At a quick glance you can see 10. Example: look at the folded napkin on the edge of the countertop in the lower left hand of the shot, Jin's collar, many of the shadow's being cast, even one noticable V in container of whatever that is on the coffee table, it goes on and on......
yep- crown vic- thats what most police cars went to when they stopped using the caprice police version ( its got the Lt1 that the corvette uses) sorry my FIL buys the caprices as a daily driver after the police are done w/ them corvette engine at 8 grand.... unfortunately for the police... not the same ability to catch up w/ the bad guys and it changed their ability w/ the evasive 3 point manuver.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
ME: Any thoughts about the Hades info I posted?
Sneaker, I think it's interesting, and I can see how it reminded you of Lost - but I don't see anything that would specifically tie it to Lost. Know what I mean? I can't see anything that would indicate that it was an influence for Lost, though I do see those elements that you highlighted that caught your eye. I know, for me, I see ties to Lost in about half the things I read and see, simply because I have Lost on the brain - so I have to sort that out from what might really be a tie to Lost. But that's just me. I think it's really interesting info though, and I can see what you're seeing - and it's definitely worth posting. You never know!
LA: yep- crown vic- thats what most police cars went to when they stopped using the caprice police version ( its got the Lt1 that the corvette uses) sorry my FIL buys the caprices as a daily driver after the police are done w/ them corvette engine at 8 grand.... unfortunately for the police... not the same ability to catch up w/ the bad guys and it changed their ability w/ the evasive 3 point manuver.
Good info, though I don't think the reference to "same car" meant just the same make of car... but... same decal and motto on the side and everything.
by: lostintexasusa (20 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 01, 2005
Thanks cac. If that Title turns out to be accurate it could be an interesting connection between A-L and Kate. In Born To Run Kate collided with 2 cars (one a police car and the other a "citizens" car) when she was fleeing from the parking garage at the hospital. Maybe the drivers of one the cars that Kate hits was connected to A-L somehow, i.e. Kate hit and killed A-L's husband/father/brother/mother? It would explain A-L's super-bitterness, Kate's added guilt, etc...
I asked about this before but no takers. What kind of food was so odd & unfamiliar with the diary writer that would make their stomach ill???
houdini, i just realize i misunderstood the diary entry you were talking about - my mistake for responding to your post before i looked at the link you provided (I was thinking you were talking about a Season 1 entry that had been referenced by someone else).
Maybe by "unfamiliar", the person meant it seems unfamiliar after all this time on the island? Or... maybe it was just food the person isn't used to - or maybe some of it is simply spoiled. Maybe the person thought it was the unfamiliarity of the food that was making him/her ill, but maybe it was something else?
by: LA5648 (783 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 05, 2005
ME: Any thoughts about the Hades info I posted?
Sneaker, I think it's interesting, and I can see how it reminded you of Lost - but I don't see anything that would specifically tie it to Lost. Know what I mean? I can't see anything that would indicate that it was an influence for Lost, though I do see those elements that you highlighted that caught your eye. I know, for me, I see ties to Lost in about half the things I read and see, simply because I have Lost on the brain - so I have to sort that out from what might really be a tie to Lost. But that's just me. I think it's really interesting info though, and I can see what you're seeing - and it's definitely worth posting. You never know!
LA: yep- crown vic- thats what most police cars went to when they stopped using the caprice police version ( its got the Lt1 that the corvette uses) sorry my FIL buys the caprices as a daily driver after the police are done w/ them corvette engine at 8 grand.... unfortunately for the police... not the same ability to catch up w/ the bad guys and it changed their ability w/ the evasive 3 point manuver.
Good info, though I don't think the reference to "same car" meant just the same make of car... but... same decal and motto on the side and everything.
ahhh- got cha-- well if this helps w/ time line- the last year that caprice's were used were 96, so if you figure at least 2 yr use- this would have to be 98 at the earliest
by: captainaeon (1295 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Dec 16, 2004
Maybe by "unfamiliar", the person meant it seems unfamiliar after all this time on the island? Or... maybe it was just food the person isn't used to -
Could be related to the country the diary writer is from. An Asian, an Australian, a US native would all have differences in their diet. What continent did the Dharma Chow come from?
by: LostDuckie7 (188 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 17, 2005
Could be related to the country the diary writer is from. An Asian, an Australian, a US native would all have differences in their diet. What continent did the Dharma Chow come from?
Exactly, they probally had a little of everything for different nationalities. Charley & Claire got the peanut butter and the diary writer got the vegemite src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Since there seemed to mostly Americans on the plane it wouldn't be something they were accustomed to.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
A bump from Way Behind Girl. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Others' location:
Blue: -The Others come from the interior. Can the tailenders just skirt the beach? How do the Others get to that boat?
If they were the ones who left the fire on the beach, they simply landed much further south than the Tailenders. Another option is that one of the hatches has a boathouse entrance. We've previously discussed that the submarine might dock this way.
Jin:
G Man: Anyone think Jin is understanding and speaking a little too much English?
I still wouldn't be surprised to learn that Jin has spoken English all along. Wouldn't it have been useful for a doorman at a hotel with an English name to speak the language?
Radio:
Blue: What about the radio? Electonics experts: what kind? What is is used for? What type of battery life? Who would of had it on the plane? Was it on the plane?
I don't have a technical answer for you, but why are they carrying the thing around if they aren't using it?
Was it "There were no surviors ..." or "No, we're the survivors ..."? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Fig: Also, it seems that each one of our survivors has a reason for time-travel, if it were possible, things in their lives that they would give almost anything to go back and change...hmmmmmm....
What if they left in 2009 but will return to 2004?
I'm not really serious about this, but it's an interesting idea, isn't it?
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Tesseracts:
Sneaker: In A Wrinkle in Time, they mistakenly define the tesseract as the "shape" you get in the 5th dimension, and it is actually the term for the 4th dimension shape. The 5th dimension shape, while containing several tesseracts (just like a cube contains several sub shapes, i.e., squares, lines and points), does not itself appear to have a standard name.
Then what is time? I always thought it was the 4th dimension.
lucky: Sorry to be so dense, and I realize that I missed a lot of past thread info, but is there any concrete reason or clue that links tesseracts and that theory to Lost?
Sawyer reading A Wrinkle in Time is the main one. The other reason is because once upon a time there was A thread where tesseracts were being discussed, clues were being given and answers were being acknowledged. We all went to bed, satisfied that we'd solved one of the riddles of Lost, but awoke to find that mAny of the posts had been tessered off the board and the thread itself had turned into a black hole. Apparently, someone has sAid too much.
Portals & Danielle:
ME: Danielle screwed up the plan! I think the numbers were being broadcast for the Station 3 "numbers entry" replacements - the numbers broadcast were so they could find the island and relieve whoever was manning Station 3, but Danielle arrived and somehow managed to change the transmission 16 years ago (we STILL don't exactly know where that took place), and so none of the replacements ever came. THAT is a big thing that changed!
You're not going to like this ME, but that would support the theory that the numbers are the ?addresses' of the portals to the island. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Sneaker: How does this factor into when Toomey started hearing the numbers? If the number broadcast begins when it's time to send replacements, and then some point later, Danielle' (or her group) changes the transmission, how does the 16 years fit in? Could the 16 years point to the initiation of the numbers transmission, and it was only the body of the message that was changed?
From what Mrs. Toomy and Danielle said, the broadcast wasn't heard all the time. It seems to coincide with the 1.5 year cycle when the island is also open for arrivals. I think that Sam/Lenny and Danielle's team heard the transmission at exactly the same time, because the island was ?open' at that time.
I think that Danielle really did change the message, like she said, and that there's only one broadcast to be heard.
Ping: This statement by her (to Sayid) has always bothered me, too. I never came to (or heard/read) an answer to her question "What if we were rescued?" that satisfied me. Why was she so determined that they couldn't be rescued? Who or what was she protecting?
The best answer I've heard for this came from the infamous disappearing tesseract thread. If Danielle left the island, as her team would have forced her to do, then Alex would be lost forever. Danielle had to stay and keep trying to get her daughter back.
This is my take on Danielle's first two months on the Lost island:
Drawn to the Island by the Numbers. Exploration of the island and finding the radio tower. Searching for the meaning of the numbers. Alex' birth. Alex' kidnapping. Trip to the Black Rock, when the team was infected on the way back and Montaigne lost his arm. Robert threatened to find a way off the island. Danielle shot Robert and other team members. Danielle changed the transmission.
I'm not sure where to put Brandon taking the keys. It has to be between Alex' kidnapping and the transmission being changed.
gammon: Anyone think that the skeletons chained up in the Black Rock could have been part of Danielle's science team? Maybe she chained them up when "it/sickness" got them
I think they are too decomposed to have been there only 16 years. But how many skeletons are there?
Tardis:
A: I gave you the "official" ABC crash announcement date, but as this thread and others noticed last spring.........something's a little tardis-y about this place. I got the "A, please, restraint...." lecture last spring for giving out too much, but the date is ambiguous for a reason! It could be that way for many reasons, though.
There. You see? I can show restraint!
Here's what I've found of the original Tardis discussion:
Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 5 reply Posted: May 23 @ 07:20 AM by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005 just to give a bit more...
it has been a while since Ada has given an installment on the Flysail story. In response to many asking her when the next chapter will appear, she says that she's been asked to wait until the next episode has aired...she then, as she so OFTEN does, adds what appears to be a 'random' last comment before leaving. in her last post on the flysail thread...this is the 'random' comment:
Now where did I leave that darn Tardis?
The TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimension In Space) is the Doctor's home. The TARDIS' interior exists in its own dimension, and the exterior shell is mapped into the real world, with freedom of movement in time and space. The TARDIS was stuck in the shape of a police box beginning in the first episode, An Unearthly Child. In the twenty-second season story Attack of the Cybermen, the Doctor finally repaired the faulty chameleon circuit, but decided to leave it in the shape it had had for all the centuries of his wanderings.
Tardis is a shareware utility for Windows that makes sure your PC's clock tells the right time. It can find out what the right time is in various ways including accessing Internet-based Atomic Clocks, using networked timeservers, GPS (The Global Positioning System), Radio clocks, and by listening for time broadcasts over a LAN.
Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 5 reply Posted: May 23 @ 07:59 AM by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005 anni, The TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimension In Space) is the Doctor's home.
The Doctor's name is Dr. Who. I watched many episodes as a child! Could be a reference to the fact that everyone gets Dr. Arzt/Artz name mixed up.
The TARDIS is huge on the inside but just a police call box from the outside. Could our island be the same? Very small almost invisible to the outside world. (Michael said that when they were rescued it might be hard to find it again) but large when you land on it.
Oh and... Doctor Who never dies, well his body does but then he morphs into another one. That way the series can carry on with a different actor. Haven't we been told that people don't stay dead on Lost island?
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Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 5 reply Posted: May 23 @ 10:54 AM by: cac120 (1127 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004 TARDIS sounds like the Looking Glass world.
And now on to new stuff:
The TARDIS is the name of a time machine in the British science fiction television programme Doctor Who. The name is an acronym of Time And Relative Dimension (or Dimensions) In Space.1 A product of Time Lord technology, a properly piloted and working TARDIS is capable of transporting its occupants to any point in space and time. Its interior exists in multidimensional space, leading to it being significantly larger on the inside than it appears from outside.
... the Doctor's TARDIS is usually referred to as the TARDIS or, in some of the earlier serials, just as "the Ship".
... The word has also entered popular usage and is used to describe anything that seems bigger on the inside than on the outside.
... In general, the TARDIS travels from place to place by dematerialising from one point and rematerialising somewhere else, although it is occasionally shown to travel through space in the manner of a conventional spacecraft.
... TARDISes draw their power from a variety of sources, but their primary source of power is remotely transmitted energy from the nucleus of an artificial black hole created by the legendary Time Lord Omega. The black hole is also known as the Eye of Harmony.
I know very little about this, so please go easy on me if this is a stupid question. Can a black hole be created by not entering a code to prevent a natural nuclear reactor from self-destructing? If so, could it suck in the world ouside the Tardis it is inside?
Other elements needed for the proper functioning of the TARDIS ... is a form of temporal energy, generated by Time Lord minds, which is also said to help power TARDISes.
Before a TARDIS becomes fully functional, it needs to be primed with the biological imprint from a Time Lord. This is normally done by simply having a Time Lord operate the TARDIS for the first time. This imprint comes from the Rassilon Imprimatur, part of the biological makeup of Time Lords, which both gives them a symbiotic link to their TARDISes and allows them to withstand the physical stresses of time travel.
Without the Imprimatur, molecular disintegration would result ... According to Time Lord law, the unauthorised use of a TARDIS carries "only one penalty", implied to be death.
Could this explain how some people survived the crash while others didn't?
Apart from their ability to travel in space and time, the most remarkable characteristic of a TARDIS is that its interior is much larger than its exterior appearance would imply. The show has explained this by saying that a TARDIS is "dimensionally transcendental", meaning that its exterior and interior exist in separate dimensions. In The Robots of Death, the Fourth Doctor tried to explain this to his companion Leela, using the analogy of how a larger cube can appear to be able to fit inside a smaller one if the larger cube is further away, yet immediately accessible at the same time (see Tesseract). According to the Doctor, transdimensional engineering was a key Time Lord discovery. To those not familiar with this aspect of a TARDIS, stepping inside the ship usually results in a reaction of shocked disbelief as they see the interior dimensions for the first time.
... The entrance to the TARDIS is capable of being locked and unlocked from the outside with a key, which the Doctor keeps on his person and occasionally gives copies of to his companions. In the 2005 series, the keys are also remotely linked to the TARDIS, capable of signalling its presence or impending arrival by heating up and glowing.
Are the keys that Brendan took to the time machine (where I believe Alex is)?
Because the TARDIS is so old, it is inclined to break down... creating the amusing irony of a highly advanced space-time machine which, at the same time, is an obsolete and unreliable piece of junk. The new series console room has a much more thrown-together appearance than previous consoles, with bits of junk substituting as makeshift controls, including a glass paperweight, a small bell and a bicycle pump.
The TARDIS possesses telepathic circuits, although the Doctor prefers to pilot it manually. ...
At times the TARDIS appears to have a mind of its own. It is heavily implied in the television series that the TARDIS is "alive" and intelligent to a degree (Inside the Spaceship), and shares a bond with those who travel in it; in the television movie the Doctor calls the TARDIS "sentimental". In Boom Town, a portion of the TARDIS control panel opened and a luminescent vapour could be seen within, described by the Doctor as the "heart of the TARDIS". In The Parting of the Ways it was shown that this is connected to the powerful energies of the time vortex. These characteristics have been made more explicit in the spin-off novels and audio plays. In the Big Finish Productions audio adventure Omega, the Doctor meets a TARDIS which "dies" after its Time Lord master has passed away.
The eye of the island? Locke certainly thinks of the Island as a sentient being and we often talk of it that way too.
... Other TARDISes have appeared in the television series. The Master had his own, more advanced model TARDIS. Its chameleon circuit is functional so it has been seen in various forms, including a filing cabinet, a grandfather clock, a fireplace, an Ionic column, and an Iron Maiden.
I've been wondering what that grandfather clock in the DeGroots' office meant.
... In the spin-off media, Gallifreyan Battle TARDISes have appeared in the comic books, novels and audio plays, which fire "time torpedoes" that freeze the target in time.
Would that help with any of our timeline issues?
Take a look at the pictures of the control rooms. The console is remniscent of the Dharma logo, albeit hexagonal rather than octagonal.
chen: ... didn't Flysail's father's partner "shift" in time? He disappeared in that time period and re-appeared in the present Lost time period, right? Maybe the main group of survivors disappeared in the same way? Of course, I have no idea how much of that, if any, I'm supposed to apply to LOST...
There's TIME TRAVEL in the story!?! And people are still doubting that it's related to Lost? I've read about half the story and I'd say that ALL of that sort of stuff is supposed to apply to Lost. I must finish it (if I ever get caught up here).
Penrose & Connections:
On Page 19, ME was talking about Penrose Tilings and then Ada said: ME, the next five episodes, beginning with 6, will give you how these survivors came together, and the weird amount of times their lives had intersected before they hit the beach.
It's very neat! Have to pay attention for the next bit to my webcam, so I'll see you later!
Keeping in mind how Marb's Grid theory intersects with my Portals theory, this also sort of describes how the characters are connected to one another. There are the regular ?six degrees' connections between them, but then we suddenly see that they have actually been in the same place at the same time, such as Sawyer and Boone in the police station and (I predict) Jack and Shannon in the emergency room. It's like they have bypassed the six degrees, just like they bypassed taking the long way around the world by passing through a portal.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
LA:ahhh- got cha-- well if this helps w/ time line- the last year that caprice's were used were 96, so if you figure at least 2 yr use- this would have to be 98 at the earliest
I don't know how strict they're going to be in that respect though. The scene with the police car from Numbers seems to have taken place the year Hurley won the lottery, which seems the same year he went to Australia, and same year as the crash, which we believe is 2004.
My guess is they're leasing a no longer used police car for a TV show, thinking no one is going to notice that it's a caprice and that aren't still used.
Could be related to the country the diary writer is from. An Asian, an Australian, a US native would all have differences in their diet. What continent did the Dharma Chow come from?
True - it could be an indication of where the current diary writer is from. I keep forgetting it's not Janelle anymore.
The food I saw in the pantry looked rather "American" or Western to me:
Olives Pickles Potato chips Pork and Beans Peanut Butter Marcino cherries Soda Apple sauce (I think - remembering off the top of my head)
There was more.. I'll have to add later.
cac: You're not going to like this ME, but that would support the theory that the numbers are the ?addresses' of the portals to the island.
But only if you perceie it that way. What I said could support a lot of things. My theory, as I posted it, and as I'm sure you understood, was that the numbers were simply being broadcast so that the replacements could pick up the numbers via radio and locate the island.
I don't actually see how this would support the portal theory anyway. Why would they need to broadcast "addresses" of the portals? How is someone clear around the world supposed to pick up a number transmission to know what coordinate numbers to put in their spiffy, top-of-the-line portal transportation machine? src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
cac: There's TIME TRAVEL in the story!?! And people are still doubting that it's related to Lost? I've read about half the story and I'd say that ALL of that sort of stuff is supposed to apply to Lost. I must finish it (if I ever get caught up here).
cac, You've not read all of the Flysail/Claire story yet?
Well, for one thing, you're wrong - not ALL of the Flysail/Claire story applies to Lost. I mean, A. was clever in how she gave clues - and not everything that happens in the story happens on Lost. You'll be able to see that, I hope.
Please keep in mind also that A. said the die has been cast.. after S2 E3 aired. The story is set. And she said it's science. She said what it is going on was pseudo-science in the 80s, but science now. So, unless you can provide solid, reliable evidence that time travel has been achieved - I'd said that if time is part of the storyline, it's not as improbable as tesseracts, portals and time travel.
Oh why oh why did someone have to unleash the tesseracts in this thread again?
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Then what is time? I always thought it was the 4th dimension.
TIME TRAVEL - A PRIMER (or How you can time-travel in your spare time)
Yes, time is the fourth dimension. Without the extra "vector" of time, all of the lower dimensions (a zero-dimensional point, a 1 dimensional line, a 2 dimensional plane, or a 3 dimensional solid) are static and cannot move in relation to each other.
However, you can apply simple transformations to more complex transformations. For example, a 1 dimensional line (which is composed of merely two points or "corners" albeit very TIGHT corners) transforms into a 2 dimensional square (composed of 4 lines and 4 corners). You can apply the same kind of transformation from 2D to 3D, and even further as far as you want from "nD" to "(n+1)D". It really becomes irrelevant whether you can actually "see" or graph any of these "high dimensional" objects; they are each composed of different numbers of lower dimensional objects (as noted above for a line and square).
The first four dimensions (including the "zeroth" dimension) have common names for their structures: 0D is a point/corner, 1D is a line/edge (made up of 2 0D points), 2D is a square/plane (made of 4 0D points and 4 1D lines), 3D is a solid/cube (made of 8 0D points, 12 1D lines, and 6 2D squares). It's when you go to 4D that the less common "tesseract" is used to name the new structure, but it is still simply composed of a bunch of lower dimensional objects.
Still with me? Hold on, cause here's where it gets a little hairy.
Imagine you're 1 dimensional: a line. You can be anywhere on the line but movement is always in one direction. Forget the fact that movement cannot occur without time for now, just focus on the inability of moving backwards on the line to return to your "past". All you have is the unalterable progress into the future.
Now consider adding a second dimension. Wow! Now you can actually make turns. No going up or down (no flights of fancy or flight 815 reservations yet), but you CAN make turns and even draw circles. And now, you have the magic of the circle to grant you the ability to return to that earlier point in "time". You can now circle back and start again, and maybe this "time" you can turn right instead of left.
But that's just lower dimensions and returning to that previous point included the use of time, even though we haven't formally included time as a dimension. But let's go to the third dimension, where we exhaust the limits of space (forward/backward, right/left, up/down). Add the next dimension of time and you have the complete system where a cube can spin around on an axis and appear to return to its previous orientation or "past", but because we've included the extra dimension of TIME, the new state of the cube is NOT the same as the previous state. It may LOOK the same, but because we're juggling FOUR pieces of data (x, y, z, AND t) while the first three numbers may be the same, the fourth is different, and therefore, just like the original example of the line, we can never return to our "past".
But..........
(the plot thickens, or rather transforms)
What if we introduce another dimension? While we actually gave the name "tesseract" to the fourth dimensional "shape", we don't have an official name for this 5th dimensional shape. But we already left the world of physical limitations behind with the cube, what's stopping us from considering this imaginary realm of the 5th dimension? Mathematically it's no big deal, just add another term to the list: x, y, z, t, a.....
But remember what magic became possible when we moved from the line to the square? We were now able to circle back and return to a past point. The big difference here in the 5th dimension is that we've formally added time as the fourth term. That means in the 5th dimension you CAN "circle" back and return to an exact previous state (more precisely, return to a previous tesseract) that includes not only the exact same space as before, but the exact same time as well.
So all you need is a "room" full of tesseracts, can time travel be far behind?
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
From what Mrs. Toomy and Danielle said, the broadcast wasn't heard all the time. It seems to coincide with the 1.5 year cycle when the island is also open for arrivals. I think that Sam/Lenny and Danielle's team heard the transmission at exactly the same time, because the island was ?open' at that time.
cac: I put together a timeline for Danielle here (top of page 6):
Granted this presumes the new protocol started in 1980 (Janurary?), but the time Sam & Leo heard the numbers come out of the static would have been 1988. The previous 540 day "shift change" would have been part way through 1987, and the next scheduled one wouldn't have been until 1989. In this senario, the new "incident" that triggers the transmission would have occurred during the 5th team's shift.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
This is my take on Danielle's first two months on the Lost island:
Drawn to the Island by the Numbers. Exploration of the island and finding the radio tower. Searching for the meaning of the numbers. Alex' birth. Alex' kidnapping. Trip to the Black Rock, when the team was infected on the way back and Montaigne lost his arm. Robert threatened to find a way off the island. Danielle shot Robert and other team members. Danielle changed the transmission.
cac: I believe Danielle says they found the tower after weeks (not months) so that puts them at the tower/BR <8 weeks post arrival. Say 6 weeks. She was only 7 months at arrival, so they'd have found the tower/BR and potentially been infected (along with Montaigne's loss of limb) before she came to term.
Sure, she could have been premature, absolutely understandable given the unusual stress of the situation. But without evidence to the contrary (and Claire made it to 9 months), figure she did not deliver Alex until 2 months after arrival, and they'd have found the tower/BR and been infected before then.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
cac, You've not read all of the Flysail/Claire story yet?
Well, for one thing, you're wrong - not ALL of the Flysail/Claire story applies to Lost. I mean, A. was clever in how she gave clues - and not everything that happens in the story happens on Lost. You'll be able to see that, I hope.
ME: Is there a link to the complete (to date) Flysail story?
Granted this presumes the new protocol started in 1980 (Janurary?), but the time Sam & Leo heard the numbers come out of the static would have been 1988. The previous 540 day "shift change" would have been part way through 1987, and the next scheduled one wouldn't have been until 1989. In this senario, the new "incident" that triggers the transmission would have occurred during the 5th team's shift.
sneak, what happens to this timeline if we assume a crash date of 2009 (I know, I know...)?
Re: 2009, I won't go into why it's NOT that date, but I think the important thing about that is we're dealing with a contemporary group dealing with contemporary issues.
If time OFF the island is passing at a different rate than ON the island, then all bets are "off" as far as when any 540 day shift change, or transmission message change, or transmission iterations synchronize with the "real world". Even how old Alex is, or when Alex or Aaron were born are arbitrary. There's even the potential for time to pass at different rates at different places on the island. What happens if our carefully constructed timelines for Danielle, or Desmond, or the Losties discovers a disconnect with the Tailies' timeline because the tailies' location happens to be running at a different time rate?
Reassembling the broken pieces of the orientation film will be child's play compared to synching up all that.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Where is everybody?
I bet ME is off flying around in her newly constructed Tesseract (mumbling to herself: "Dang! Who'da-thunk-it... This thing actually works! All I needed was that bicycle pump!! Now I gotta go back in time and change all my posts so I agree with the time travel/tesseract angle.... Wheee!!!!")
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Ok, I have figured what days the replacements were scheduled to arrive on the island. This assumes that they arrive every 540 days and that the first "shift" began on January 1, 1980, which is a VERY big assumption. Also, these dates do account for leap years.
Based on these dates (which again assumes a January 1, 1980 start date), no shifts were scheduled to arrive in 2004. If someone was so inclined, they could alter the start date (Jan 1, 1980) to determine what start date would be required to have a shift begin in September of 2004 (or 2009 for those of you who believe that this is the actual year of the flight).
The bizarre thing is that September 22, 2000 is an arrival date based on my assumptions.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Sneaker and pss, I'm sorry to tell you this, but I think that your timelines are a little off. The only date we know, and we don't even KNOW that one but it's the best assumption we have, is September 2004. Why don't we start there and work backwards? 1980 is 24 years ago. Since this is divisible by 3 (2 shifts), that would mean the first shift began in September 1980, which fits perfectly with the film being made that year. In the years divisible by 1.5, they'd arrive in March.
That would make it April 1988 when the counter on the transmitter was reset. I think they just rounded it to 16 years in later references.
Assuming her ship arrived on schedule in March and that the counter was reset when she changed the transmission, this messes up my timeline too.
Alex had to have been born before Robert was killed and the transmission had to have been changed after he was dead. Yet the transmission was changed in April but Alex shouldn't have been born until May.
We don't know how many times they went to the Black Rock. If they were getting dynamite to dig out their shelter (or other supplies), they might have made several trips. It may not have been the discovery trip when they were exposed to the illness. We also don't know its incubation period.
How about this?
Drawn to the Island by the Numbers. Searching for the meaning of the numbers. Finding the radio tower and the Black Rock. Infected with the illness & Montaigne lost his arm. Alex' birth. Alex' kidnapping. Robert threatened to find a way off the island. Danielle shot Robert and other team members. Danielle changed the transmission.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
1980 is 24 years ago. Since this is divisible by 3 (2 shifts), that would mean the first shift began in September 1980, which fits perfectly with the film being made that year. In the years divisible by 1.5, they'd arrive in March. .
cac - I'm sorry, but I'm not following you on this one...could you spell it out a little more?
One thing to remember is that starting with 1980, there have been 7 leap years. Also, 540 days is actaully 1. 4795 years, which although is not far off of 1.5, it is enough to through off your calulations by approximately 121 days at the 16th shift (24 years / 1.4795 years per shift = 16.22 shifts)
1.50 - 1.4795 years = 0.0205 years = 7.48 days 7.48 days x 16= 121.33 days
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
ME: cac, You've not read all of the Flysail/Claire story yet?
Well, for one thing, you're wrong - not ALL of the Flysail/Claire story applies to Lost. I mean, A. was clever in how she gave clues - and not everything that happens in the story happens on Lost. You'll be able to see that, I hope.
I'm not even caught up here yet, let alone other things I should be reading.
I do realize that Flysail is not a literal retelling of what's happening on Lost, but, from what I've read, everything is a clue to what is happening on the show. I think that some of them are just so far ahead that they won't be revealed until the end of this season or even later. They inhabit the same world, so what's possible in Flysail is possible on TV.
ME, you have no idea how many times I've wished that you were in the original tesseract thread. Doesn't the fact that A's clues were erased tell you that we were on the right track with our answers?
I don't actually think that time travel is involved, but I do think that they have gone to another dimension, or at least Alex has. This is strongly supported by the references to A Wrinkle in Time and Alice Through the Looking Glass, which have been discussed here.
Her statement about pseudo-science in the ?80s but real science now confuses and really disappoints me. It contradicts what was said before about science, pseudo-science and theoretical-science -- and maybe that has changed. If all that's being experimented with are meteorology, zoology, psychology and para-psychology then the Island is no longer a mysterious place. To me, that says that the producers have caved to network pressure to make it more realistic and we'll get to watch a once great show turn into the fictionalized Survivor the network idiots originally intended it to be. If that's the case, I may as well stop watching now.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Drawn to the Island by the Numbers. Searching for the meaning of the numbers. Finding the radio tower and the Black Rock. Infected with the illness & Montaigne lost his arm. Alex' birth. Alex' kidnapping. Robert threatened to find a way off the island. Danielle shot Robert and other team members. Danielle changed the transmission.
I like that better. I'm still not sure about WHERE Alex was born. And I have a little trouble imagining Danielle nursing the baby in one arm and gunning down the team with the other. I think she'd need both hands for the job:
<BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG>
Danielle <baby crying in the background>: "I TOLD you to BE QUIET! I JUST got her to sleep!!!!"
You can do this with Excel real easy. Just type you start date into A1 and then type this formula into A2:
=A1+540
(or - 540 if you want to count backwards).
Then copy the contents of A2 down as far as you want. Since Excel recognizes the A1 cell as a date, it'll handle all the results as Dates too. Plus, this method DOES account for leap years.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
You can do this with Excel real easy. Just type you start date into A1 and then type this formula into A2:
=A1+540
(or - 540 if you want to count backwards).
Then copy the contents of A2 down as far as you want. Since Excel recognizes the A1 cell as a date, it'll handle all the results as Dates too. Plus, this method DOES account for leap years.
DOH!
I knew there must be a way for excel to do this, I just didn't have the time (read "patience") to figure it out (I don't usually deal with dates in excel).
by: blissfullylost (195 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Feb 17, 2005
So far as we know, this is right. However, the spoilers about the titles seem to keep changing and various sources have different titles:
Man, have they ever! One website I was following for the episode titles had episode 9 called The Real Sawyer, and now it's a Kate episode src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
Sneaker & Cac: I'm just wondering why you're sure that Danielle delivered Alex before she killed her team. Did I miss something?
Although I never saw anything specifically saying so, I have assumed Danielle delivered Alex AFTER killing her team. She said she delivered Alex by herself, and then that they had a couple of weeks together before she was kidnapped. I would think that, if he were capable, Robert would have been right there with her to help deliver the baby.
Although her delivering by herself is certainly not proof that the others were dead, I would say it does make it quite likely. Either the team was ill and could not help her, or dead and could not help.
Is this an agree to disagree issue, or is there something I'm not taking into consideration?
I assume the timeline is more like this. Drawn to the Island by the Numbers. Searching for the meaning of the numbers. Finding the radio tower and the Black Rock. Infected with the illness & Montaigne lost his arm. Danielle shot Robert and other team members. Danielle changed the transmission. * Alex born. Alex kidnapped.
*the thing that makes me even more convinced she delivered after she killed the team is that, when she changed the transmission, she was asking for help. Alhough she wasn't specifically asking to be rescued, she wasn't hiding from it, either.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
So far as we know, this is right. However, the spoilers about the titles seem to keep changing and various sources have different titles:
Man, have they ever! One website I was following for the episode titles had episode 9 called The Real Sawyer, and now it's a Kate episode src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I gotta wonder about that Sawyer episode.... They keep changing when it's supposed to be shown and what title it has.
Maybe there isn't going to BE a Sawyer espisode, because.....
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Not absolutely positive, but given her (how suspect ARE these anyway?) statements:
A week after Alex is born the black smoke came (they took her that night).
They find the Tower/BR weeks (not months) after arrival and that's where they get infected (coming back from the BR).
The infection surfaced about 2 months after they arrived.
So how long after symptoms did she kill them? It would have been quite close to full term. Either way, the delivery and the killings probably hapened within a week of each other.
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
RE: determining where Ana Lucia's professional life occurred . . . Spoiler Below...
Did you catch the police motorcycle shots? That just shouts CHiPS to me! (Am I dating myself src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/sad.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>).
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
Hey Sneaker!
I know, I know. It all keeps changing!
That's for a couple of reasons. If you have the time, I can fill you in.
If you'd rather I leave you guys alone, I can skeedaddle. I'll wait for a yes or no before I post anymore.
Whatever your decision, have fun!
Don't know about Sneaker, mme, but I'm interested if you have the time! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> Thanks!
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
We are nothing, without you.....
Well, not NOTHING, but I'm in such a pitiful state that I'm actually going to watch tonight to see if they change anything-- Darn that Shark Logo!!!!!! It's all some twisted "Jump the Shark" joke!!!
A voice in the wilderness would be like Danielle's music box the first few years....
by: mmecoquenard (219 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 29, 2005
You guys are funny! You don't need my visits! Look at everything you do, and you do it without any help!
I've been giving some people, who seem to be taking the board and life a little too seriously of late, a breather. That's all!
OK, here's what's up.
Officially, we weren't supposed to have the break this early. The first three hours were stand alones, meant to be taken as a whole. Then 4-7 were meant to be the first storyline arc of the season, and if you watch the four later together, you'll notice that they were written to be taken that way.
But the net made the decision to move the break forward by two weeks, and we're taking advantage of that. As we view the finished product (about a week before you see it), we get more ideas. There's often knee slapping, and "OH Gee! What if we had done this instead of that...". When a break like this happens, we take advantage of it!
Before the holiday break, you will get four, and hopefully five, episodes. We'd like to see 10 air before the break, but that's sort of up to the net. Here's why.
Everything's about to change. If we do this right, the island opens up some it's mysteries, and you get a rush of information coming at you. If we do it wrong, you sit there over holiday break saying "What the heck happened to the show?".
The Tailies are going to bring some information to the group and is going to make the Fusies, well, very concerned! A danger they thought was as bad as danger could get, they realize, hasn't even begun to blossom. Things Lost, things found.......all going to come back on the group.
To do this, our original Fusies are making room for the extended storylines, and are being great about letting us push their continuing storylines into the new year. Also, one of the episodes that is coming up very quickly will hopefully amaze viewers who think they have a grip on how the plots are unfolding.
Gotta keep it fresh for you all, right?
If you give me yes, I'll send someone back here later with some specific past plot points you might want to review before things become deadly on the LOST island.
Don't worry Charlie fans, you get some good stuff on he and Claire and little Aaron before his FB show further on in the line-up.
by: The_Original_G_Man (685 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
If you give me yes, I'll send someone back here later with some specific past plot points you might want to review before things become deadly on the LOST island.
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
THANKS, MME! And, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!! Please do give us more! (If I don't get some fresh stuff to ponder, I might just have to run out and find some spoilers! Eeek! Don't make me do it, mme! HELP!)
Okay, I'm under control again. Thanks for your direction. It is totally appreciated.
(Oh, and sorry to sound like such a newbie, but what exactly is "Fusies?" Never heard that term before!)
Message was edited by: twolfe71a to fix sad grammatical error.
by: The_Original_G_Man (685 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
Hey Lark! G-Man is just kind enough to let me smile at him from time to time!
Madame:
I have one thing to say to you ...
Who can turn the world on with her smile? Who can take a nothing day, and suddenly make it all seem worthwhile? Well it's you girl, and you should know it With each glance and every little movement you show it
Love is all around, no need to waste it You can have a town, why don't you take it You're gonna make it after all You're gonna make it after all
(PS - any chance you can throw me a bone and clue us in as to why Bruce the shark had his tattoo removed?)
by: chenmeina (30 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
If you give me yes, I'll send someone back here later with some specific past plot points you might want to review before things become deadly on the LOST island.
Oh, please do --- I'm not in charge here, but I've been around long enough to know that cac, ME and the other regulars would be screaming "yes" at you!
I know you think we are doing well on our own, but it helps so much to have a direction to focus on...
by: mmecoquenard (219 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 29, 2005
G, to confuse you all! The attempt this year is to make it as interactive as possible. To hit you here, and stun you there, because frankly, you all are teetering on the brink of the island solution! Now the question becomes how do we keep it interesting? I hope you like where the question took us!
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
(PS - any chance you can throw me a bone and clue us in as to why Bruce the shark had his tattoo removed?)
Hey, G-Man: sorry to pop in and out like this, but my toddler thinks he needs to have a snack. But thought I'd throw this out at you. I checked out the Fuselage yesterday and saw a post by Javier explaining that he didn't believe they changed the epi. (He said they're too busy working on upcoming epis.) I'll try to put up a link later when the little one's tummy is full!
Sorry to say I didn't see Bruce the second time around. Sadly, I missed the re-run. (I had the first run on tape; who would have thought I would have needed to tape the re-run, too!)
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
Survivors from the tail end = Tailies
Survivors from the fuselage = Fusies
Thanks, G-man! (I feel like such an insider now; I have down the proper nicknames now!)
Thanks, again, mme for the info! (I'll be sure to set the VCR tonight!) I gotta run to get my toddler fed, but I'll check back later. Wanted to be sure to say THANKS for giving me more to ponder!
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
(PS - any chance you can throw me a bone and clue us in as to why Bruce the shark had his tattoo removed?)
I understood that the rerun HAD the tattoo but it was just a lot darker than before. And there was something different about what Jin was calling out (that Sawyer heard on the raft).
Not unlike the episode cleanup they did with Boone's Beechcraft transmission...
If you give me yes, I'll send someone back here later with some specific past plot points you might want to review before things become deadly on the LOST island.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
***Anxiously awaiting additional words from mme, A, plato, or anyone else who cares to chime in!***
Back to the TARDIS discussion for a moment, I found this on the wikipedia site:
The term TARDIS, however, appears to be used by others to apply to all Time Lord time machines. This apparent inconsistency, like others over the course of the programme's history, has generated some lively debate among fans. In the Virgin New Adventures novel Lungbarrow by Marc Platt, Susan tells the First Doctor that she gave him the idea when he was, implicitly, the Other. As with the other spin-off media, the canonicity of the novel is unclear.
The Other? Granted, I know nothing of this series, either in TV, book, or spinoff form, but I would think that, along with the hints towards TARDIS that we've gotten, it's not a coincidence. Maybe someone more familiar with the series and the significance of this Other can fill the others of us in?
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Mme, I guess I missed your visit, but "YES PLEASE!!!" to sending someone to tell us what to review. And we DO need you.
Sneaker: I have a little trouble imagining Danielle nursing the baby in one arm and gunning down the team with the other. I think she'd need both hands for the job:
I think Alex had already been kidnapped when Danielle killed her team. If Danielle killed her team because she didn't want to be rescued and leave Alex behind, Alex had to have already been born and kidnapped. I'd like to refer you to the tesseract thread for the original discussion of this, but ...
I'm SO glad your computer was calculating the dates for you. I was feeling bad about telling you to keep trying a different one.
6/18/1988 12/26/1986
That means that for Danielle to be able to change the transmission in late March 1988, she'd have to have arrived FIFTEEN months before that. She certainly didn't make it sound like she'd been there THAT long when she changed the broadcast. Hmm....
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
I think it's tough trying to peg the shift dates because we don't know when in 1980 ('79? '81?) the first group actually started. Plus, I think the 540 might be just possibly approximate. They're on a secluded island, there'd probably be a little variability on precise arrival/departures.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I think it's tough trying to peg the shift dates because we don't know when in 1980 ('79? '81?) the first group actually started. Plus, I think the 540 might be just possibly approximate. They're on a secluded island, there'd probably be a little variability on precise arrival/departures.
I couldn't agree more. But what's wrong with an exercise in futility...at least it's exercise.
I do think that we have laid some groundwork, though. As the series progresses and we get more and more dates, I think that the work on the shift timeline will come in very handy. For example, if we find out the date that Kelvin arrived, we can figure out when the incident occurred.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I'm still back on page 26 and Mme ?just' said:
Take another look at someone on the island, and statements that they've made about how they came to the island, why, and actions that they took while on the island. Think about what the person has said about rescue in the face of what you now know about the Dharma Intiative and it's purpose on the island.
So, Danielle changed the message in late March, probably shortly after killing her team. The next shift change was supposed to take place on June 18.
Perhaps her team knew the date, even approximately, and had increased their efforts to be rescued, knowing they had only a small window of time when it would be possible. Even though they'd already been there for 15 months, the possibility of rescue suddenly took on a new urgency for Danielle and so she acted to prevent being forced to abandon Alex.
You know what the length of a hatch "stay" was supposed to be, and you know that something went wrong at some point since 1980 and before 3 years ago when Desmond found himself on the island: What do you know, specifically from things said by someone who has been on the island during that time, what happened during that period?
Just make a timeline, and revisit the words exactly. I think you'll find it interesting!
Maybe changing the transmission DID prevent the regular arrivals for the shift change.
Maybe those who have arrived since Danielle were not brought by the modifications to the island, but by it's original 'pull,' just like Adam & Eve, the Black Rock and anyone else who arrived pre-Dharma.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
Please forgive another possible repeated question from a newbie, and possibly yet another exercise in futility, but have you all ever investigated Lost in the light of astronomy? A has mentioned that each of the characters have ties to the zodiac constellations, and also compared Locke to Orion. Claire seems farily into astrology and guessed that Kate was a Gemini (the twin).
But A also told us to "look up." This makes me wonder if clues are in the actual stars in the sky, not just in the mythology behind the zodiac signs and constellations. I've never noticed the stars on the show at all, but I have been interested in astronomy for a long time. I was thinking about going through the first season to take note of any stars or constellations that are shown. If nothing else, seeing a recognizable constellation in the sky at a particular height/angle would tell us something about the latitude of the island, how far north or south of the equator they are.
Has anyone done that in previous threads now eaten? I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I'm still back on page 26 and Mme ?just' said:
Take another look at someone on the island, and statements that they've made about how they came to the island, why, and actions that they took while on the island. Think about what the person has said about rescue in the face of what you now know about the Dharma Intiative and it's purpose on the island.
So, Danielle changed the message in late March, probably shortly after killing her team. The next shift change was supposed to take place on June 18.
Perhaps her team knew the date, even approximately, and had increased their efforts to be rescued, knowing they had only a small window of time when it would be possible. Even though they'd already been there for 15 months, the possibility of rescue suddenly took on a new urgency for Danielle and so she acted to prevent being forced to abandon Alex.
You know what the length of a hatch "stay" was supposed to be, and you know that something went wrong at some point since 1980 and before 3 years ago when Desmond found himself on the island: What do you know, specifically from things said by someone who has been on the island during that time, what happened during that period?
Just make a timeline, and revisit the words exactly. I think you'll find it interesting!
Maybe changing the transmission DID prevent the regular arrivals for the shift change.
Maybe those who have arrived since Danielle were not brought by the modifications to the island, but by it's original 'pull,' just like Adam & Eve, the Black Rock and anyone else who arrived pre-Dharma.
I like it, cac!
So, based on what you have said:
1. The protocol started somewhere around 1980 (we don't know for sure at this point). THis protocol involved a radio antenna transmitting the numbers.
2. In 1988, Danielle arrived on the island. At the time she and her team arrived, the protocol was already in place. We can assume that at this time, replacements were still being sent every 540 days. However, she changed the transmission. This prompted Dharma to discontinue sending replacements. Does this mean that Dharma "wrote off" the island and has since abandoned it (at least their sponsorship of it)? If so, does this also imply that the world will not end when the numbers are no longer entered? Personally, I believe that Dharma thinks that the "protocol" has been compromised and no longer has anything to do wiht the island. however, I do not think that the protocol has been compromised (given Des' state of mind, there is no way he would not enter the numbers).
3. This means that the last time a replacement could have been sent was 1988, before Danielle arrived (assuming that she is not a replacement).
4. In 2001, Desmond crashes on the island and is rescued (I use that term very loosely) by Kelvin. Assuming that Kelvin was part of the regular 540 replacements, he had been on the island since at least 1988, or 13 years (11.5 years longer than planned).
All of this would also imply that the replacements should have been aware of what was going on on the surface (i.e.; all the crazy s h i t with the others and the whispers, etc.). This, imo, is also substantiated by the gunroom in the hatch (why have a gunroom if you don't tell your workers - replacements - why they will need it).
Also, I think that regardless of Dharma's presence on the island, it has always drawn people to it (i.e.; the island drew plane/boat crashes even while the experiments were being conducted before the incident)
Anyway, I kinda forgot where I was originally going with this...end of day, brain fried...
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
This, imo, is also substantiated by the gunroom in the hatch (why have a gunroom if you don't tell your workers - replacements - why they will need it).
Speaking of the gun room, is there anything about the guns in there that would tell us anything about when they were brought to the hatch? Are there guns newer than 1980? Newer than 1988? I know absolutely nothing about guns, but thought someone might know. Sorry if this has been discussed before.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I like it, cac!
Thanks, and as I keep reading, I see that ME and a few others had the same idea 3 days ago
Actually, if the 540 day schedule is the natural cycle of the island, as I think it is, rather than a randomly chosen shift length, then Danielle's team arrived in 1986, probably at the same time as Kelvin or maybe instead of his replacements.
Dharma may or may not have written off the island at that time. They could still be doing things like sponsoring sailboat races and running airlines in the hope of once in a while getting more people onto the island.
I don't know that the replacements would have known much about the surface of the island. The film didn't give them much information, so I think they were told the minimum to keep it going. I think most of what they knew, they figured out once they got there.
Ping, there was a constelation thread in the spring. I don't remember much about it, but hopefully someone will post something here to get you started.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Actually, if the 540 day schedule is the natural cycle of the island, as I think it is, rather than a randomly chosen shift length
That is agood point. Why 540 days?
then Danielle's team arrived in 1986
What "starting" date is that based on?
I don't know that the replacements would have known much about the surface of the island. The film didn't give them much information, so I think they were told the minimum to keep it going. I think most of what they knew, they figured out once they got there.
First, the film was missing some pieces...pieces whose length we have no idea. Second, the whole orientation film has always puzzled me. Why put an orientation film on the island if you were training the replacements before they went (i.e.; the replacements knew why they were going)? WOuldn't they already know this stuff? Unless Dharma pulled the old switch-a-roo - recruit them for some generic "scientific research mission" (sound familiar?), send them to the island and tell tehm to watch the video when they get there. This could help explain Danielle's transmission to someone who she thought would know what was going on.
probably at the same time as Kelvin or maybe instead of his replacements.
I have always wondered if Danielle's team were the replacements. What if she went there under false pretences (she above paragraph), crashed, never saw the video, and thus did not know about the protocol or any of the other crap on the island. She then unwhittingly changed the broadcast and ended any hope of her replacements coming to the island.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
Ping, there was a constelation thread in the spring. I don't remember much about it, but hopefully someone will post something here to get you started.
Slpy, was that your thread?
Thanks, I figured that it must have been discussed before, especially with A's hints about it.
Someone earlier was thinking about asking Brax if the previous parts of this thread that people have saved could be posted over there, but I never heard whether that was in the works. I was only able to find parts 7 and 8, so anything before that would be great reading! It would also keep you all from having me bring up questions already answered to death. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: Thanks, and as I keep reading, I see that ME and a few others had the same idea 3 days ago
Yes, I was just about to say, I'm pretty sure I was the first to post that theory several days ago! I was quite excited about that light-bulb moment. src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
I thought you had read my post about it already though, cac.. since you replied to it saying it supports your portal/time travel/tesseract theory! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> LOL
Anyway, I agree with you that I don't think the replacements probably knew about the mysterious happenings on the island.
ping, in the past A. has suggested we look for constellations in the show. She said we've seen constellations from both the northern and southern hemisphere's so far, and several us here in this thread tried to spot them, but we didn't get very far. In White Rabbit and Special you see the exact same shot of the same constellation, which we thought was the head of Draco. If you want to go through to see if you can spot more, if you're into astronomy - that would be great. You might be able to spot them easier than those of us without as much star gazing experience.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
mme: G, to confuse you all! The attempt this year is to make it as interactive as possible. To hit you here, and stun you there, because frankly, you all are teetering on the brink of the island solution! Now the question becomes how do we keep it interesting? I hope you like where the question took us!
Well, if they wanted to confuse us, they succeeded wtih me! They actually CHANGED things for a re-run? How bizarre. I don't think they should be allowd to DO that!
Hmmmm... so what if we saw the first airing, but weren't able to catch the re-run? Which version do they want us to use as the episode to base the storyline on?
Thanks for the info. mme, and anything else you'd like to tell us! ANY time!! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/grin.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
In White Rabbit and Special you see the exact same shot of the same constellation, which we thought was the head of Draco. If you want to go through to see if you can spot more, if you're into astronomy - that would be great. You might be able to spot them easier than those of us without as much star gazing experience.
Will do! I'll break out my star chart and give it a go. Probably won't get to it until the weekend, but I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
Very interesting to know that A has previously said that we've seen constellations from the north and the south! Well, I guess it's only interesting if they were both from the island. That would mean that they're right on the equator. But in case the ones in the north are in flashbacks, I'll look at those, too, maybe it'll help in figuring out which character goes with which constellation.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
ping:Very interesting to know that A has previously said that we've seen constellations from the north and the south! Well, I guess it's only interesting if they were both from the island. That would mean that they're right on the equator. But in case the ones in the north are in flashbacks, I'll look at those, too, maybe it'll help in figuring out which character goes with which constellation.
I do think she meant the island. Actually, I think we've only seen constellations from the island... but I'm not certain. And yes, it does confirm the theory that many of have that the island is on or very near the equator.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
To get 1986, I used the schedule Sneaker calculated at the bottom of p. 31. I asked him(?) to use Sept 22, 2004 and work backwards.
Interestingly, we don't have a date in 1980, but Jan 26, 1981 is early enough in the new year for the film to be made in 1980.
I just discovered another problem. Danielle couldn't have changed the numbers before the 1988 date because that's when Lenny & Sam heard them.
Sayid figured out the 16 years, 5 months by estimating the length of Danielle's message and multiplying by the number of times it had repeated. Until Danielle changed it, the transmission said only the numbers, which wouldn't have taken as long to say each time. So, for the first however many years the transmission was maybe 5 seconds long and then since Danielle arrived it was 30 seconds long. Someone who's better at math than I am can probably figure out exactly when Danielle arrived from this.
I agree that it's possible that Danielle's team were the replacements, particularly as they were on a scientific mission in the area, and just didn't know it.
9/22/2004 - O815 4/1/2003 10/8/2001 - Desmond arrived 4/16/2000 10/24/1998 5/2/1997 11/9/1995 5/18/1994 11/24/1992 6/3/1991 12/10/1989 6/18/1988 - Sam & Lenny heard the numbers 12/26/1986 7/4/1985 1/11/1984 7/20/1982 1/26/1981 - First shift began 8/5/1979
Ping, I have emailed Brax about putting up the earlier parts of this thread and he has agreed. I've sent him the first one, but I don't think it's up yet.
ME, I think I did read your post a few days ago, but it was a bit out of context at the time. It made way more sense to me now that I'm almost caught up.
by: lucky4me8 (276 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Sneaker,
You are a smart cookie.
A quick question to make sure I understand something before I keep going:
Hypothetically, can a point in the 5th dimension (say one that is a return to an exact original point in time and space) and a point in the 4th dimension (one that is a return to the original point in all respects except for time, which makes it slightly different that the original point) coexist within the 5th dimension? How does that work?
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac:I just discovered another problem. Danielle couldn't have changed the numbers before the 1988 date because that's when Lenny & Sam heard them.
EXACTLY! I keep pointing this out too!
cac:So, for the first however many years the transmission was maybe 5 seconds long and then since Danielle arrived it was 30 seconds long. Someone who's better at math than I am can probably figure out exactly when Danielle arrived from this.
But we don't know if the iteration count Sayid heard started when the original numbers transmission was started, or if the count was reset when Danielle changed the transmission.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
But we don't know if the iteration count Sayid heard started when the original numbers transmission was started, or if the count was reset when Danielle changed the transmission.
I think we DO know that now. If the counter was reset when Danielle changed the transmission, she had to have changed it in March 1988, which is before Sam & Lenny heard the numbers.
We also have Danielle saying she didn't think it had been 16 years.
by: back_gammon (960 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 24, 2005
What are the implications of malfunctioning equipment on Danielle's vessel, if the equipment did indeed malfunction as Danielle told Sayid? Assuming that what Danielle told Hurley was true about changing course to investigate after picking up the numbers transmission, would the ship have been able to navigate anywhere close to the island, during a storm, with no constellations to go by?
by: twolfe71a (297 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 17, 2005
Hmmmm... so what if we saw the first airing, but weren't able to catch the re-run? Which version do they want us to use as the episode to base the storyline on?
Tell me about it, ME!! I actually did miss the 2nd running of the show. And now I am totally at a loss for what to think about the shark. I'm not going to miss tonight, I'll tell you that! Not with a big, juicy orientation movie that might change.
I have this weird feeling we're about to have a "Sliding Doors" kind of moment come up or something.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac:I think we DO know that now. If the counter was reset when Danielle changed the transmission, she had to have changed it in March 1988, which is before Sam & Lenny heard the numbers.
We also have Danielle saying she didn't think it had been 16 years.
I don't understand how March 1998 would necessarily be before Sam and Lenny heard the numbers. If it was March 1988, that's 16 years ago... and Martha Toomey said that Sam and Lenny heard the transmission 16 years go. How doesn't that work?
We have Danielle saying, "16 years - has it been that long?" - making it sound like she was surprised it had been there 16 years - but we don't KNOW.
I'm not saying that Danielle might not have been there les than 16 years - but I don't understand how this information means me know for sure, or that we know for sure if the iterations started with the numbers transmission, or Danielle's.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
ME: I do think she meant the island. Actually, I think we've only seen constellations from the island... but I'm not certain. And yes, it does confirm the theory that many of have that the island is on or very near the equator.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I don't understand how March 1998 would necessarily be before Sam and Lenny heard the numbers. If it was March 1988, that's 16 years ago... and Martha Toomey said that Sam and Lenny heard the transmission 16 years go. How doesn't that work?
I'm working on the assumption that the transmission was heard for a short time coinciding with the dates on the list. All they heard was static and then suddenly the numbers, so they weren't being heard all the time, even though they were on a continuous loop being broadcast. Something was stopping the transmission leaving the island most of the time and the 540 days is the first indication we've had of the open/closed cycle of the island.
Lenny and Sam would have heard the numbers in June, so it couldn't have been changed before that.
If the counter was reset when Danielle changed the transmission, then she changed it in late March 1988.
Let me see if I can figure out the formula to get her arrival:
Iterations: 17294533 Length of Danielle's message: 30 seconds Time Danielle's message played: x years Length of Numbers message: 6 seconds (one second per number?) Time Numbers message played: y years Time since message started: 24 years
x + y = 24
Don't we have a math person to do this? I'm sure it can't be that hard.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
cac: Sayid figured out the 16 years, 5 months by estimating the length of Danielle's message and multiplying by the number of times it had repeated. Until Danielle changed it, the transmission said only the numbers, which wouldn't have taken as long to say each time. So, for the first however many years the transmission was maybe 5 seconds long and then since Danielle arrived it was 30 seconds long. Someone who's better at math than I am can probably figure out exactly when Danielle arrived from this.
...
Ping, I have emailed Brax about putting up the earlier parts of this thread and he has agreed. I've sent him the first one, but I don't think it's up yet.
cac, a few things.
I think I remember during the discussion on the 16 years 5 months, that someone actually timed the messge, and it was closer to 20 seconds than 30. So Sayid's estimation would be a bit off.
Breaking out calculator to see what 20 seconds would be...
17294531 was the count, divided by 3 (60 min/20 sec) = 5764844 minutes = 96080.73 hours = 4003.36 days = 10.968 years which is close enough to 11 years
Okay, that's a pretty big difference, 11 years or 16 years 5 months!
Now I know that she said to the group that she'd been on the island for 16 years, but that was after Sayid said it, and her response to him at the time was "Has it really been that long?" She seems to respect Sayid and his intelligence, so I think she trusted that he was correct when he calculated 16 years, but I'm not so sure. I think it well could be 11 years, or anything in between.
Also, as cac mentioned, if the count took less time to say, then the iterations from the beginning to the time she changed it could have been less than 20 seconds, so we would need to know when the transmission started to be able to calculate when she arrived.
And while I'm on the topic, it seems that many are assuming that the numbers were only transmitted when it was time for a replacement, and that when Lenny and Sam heard them, it had recently been turned on for that round. But what about the iteration count? Any calculation of time based on the count makes the assumption that the count is continuous from the start until Sayid picked them up. Do you think that it kept counting even in the 18 months in between rotations if there were no numbers being broadcast? Maybe the numbers were transmitting the whole time, and for whatever reason Lenny and Sam didn't hear them until that particular day. Hmm.
Since it's my theme of the day, I assume that you all figured the 16 years/11 years thing out long ago, but it's the first time I've actually done the math, and in light of the timelines being constructed, it might be a good idea to question a bit that she arrived in 1988. It might be 1988, it might be closer to 1993.
And finally, that will be so great to be able and go back to the beginning when the previous threads get posted to Brax's site. I'll definitely have enough to keep me going until next Wed! Thanks a ton to you and to Brax!
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
twolfe: I'm not going to miss tonight, I'll tell you that! Not with a big, juicy orientation movie that might change.
...and their plot worked perrrrrrrfectly! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
That's the idea, wasn't it? To get all of us who have seen them at least once (and for many, more times than we care to admit), to watch them in the reruns?
Genius.
I loved Sliding Doors! Really interesting movie. I hope they don't go too far with splitting plots here, though, or people are going to get pi**ed.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Ping, could you use the Jan 1981 date to start? Try it with 20 and 30 seconds for Danielle's message. It would be interesting to see how different it is.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac:I'm working on the assumption that the transmission was heard for a short time coinciding with the dates on the list. All they heard was static and then suddenly the numbers, so they weren't being heard all the time, even though they were on a continuous loop being broadcast. Something was stopping the transmission leaving the island most of the time and the 540 days is the first indication we've had of the open/closed cycle of the island.
Lenny and Sam would have heard the numbers in June, so it couldn't have been changed before that.
I understand the first part, and agree... that makes sense... but how do you know they heard the numbers in June?
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
ping:Maybe the numbers were transmitting the whole time, and for whatever reason Lenny and Sam didn't hear them until that particular day. Hmm.
That's what I've been thinking until now - so I think it could be either (how's that for sitting on the fence?)... will need to give it more thought. cac: Ping, could you use the Jan 1981 date to start? Try it with 20 and 30 seconds for Danielle's message. It would be interesting to see how different it is.
But Danielle's message couldn't have started in 1981.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Sneaker,
You are a smart cookie.
A quick question to make sure I understand something before I keep going:
Hypothetically, can a point in the 5th dimension (say one that is a return to an exact original point in time and space) and a point in the 4th dimension (one that is a return to the original point in all respects except for time, which makes it slightly different that the original point) coexist within the 5th dimension? How does that work?
My humility says thanks.
Every object in a lower dimension can be a part of another object in a higher dimension. So a line (in 1D space) is a potential part of a Square (in 2D space). So you can have a square composed of four different lines, and each line could be considered unique objects within their own space. Turn the square clockwise 90 degrees and the right edge is now the bottom edge. They are not the same edge if you look at it from the perspective of the SQUARE. But if you consider the line that is present in that same space, it may as well be the same line. It's only when you are looking at the square, in 2D space that the individual lines are "entwined" in that single 2D space.
Similarly there are a finite number of tesseracts (4D shapes) that will exist within one 5D shape. So a manipulation of the 5D shape should allow the transparent jump between any of those tesseracts that make up the 5D shape.
ME: Sorry to drag you back into the 4D box ( src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>) but you gave me a nice link once (credited to cac) showing a nice table of N-dimensional shapes and how many sub-dimensional shapes were needed to compose them. Do you remember the link (I promise to bookmark it this time)?
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac:Sneaker made the schedule, working backwards from the day the show premiered and subtracting 540 days each time.
Ah, ok - so Lenny and Sam hearing the numbers in June is complete speculation based on one of the many shift-change timeline calculations attempts. So, we don't really "know" it was June, but it's a calulated guess.
But we don't know where in the shift cycle it would have been be on the day of the crash, right?
We also know that something distrupted the protocol before Demond arrived.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
But Danielle's message couldn't have started in 1981.
No, but the numbers would have started to be broadcast shortly after the film was made. The first date on the list is Jan 1981.
The 6 second number message was repeated from 1980/81 to whenever Danielle changed it after June 1988. Then Danielle's 30 second message was repeated until the Losties heard it in September 2004.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
ME: Sorry to drag you back into the 4D box () but you gave me a nice link once (credited to cac) showing a nice table of N-dimensional shapes and how many sub-dimensional shapes were needed to compose them. Do you remember the link (I promise to bookmark it this time)?
Oh, yes... that link (which cac had nothing to do with src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/wink.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'> )... hmmmm... I don't know. I didn't bookmark it... but it should be in this part of the Titles thread somewhere.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
cac:Sneaker made the schedule, working backwards from the day the show premiered and subtracting 540 days each time.
Ah, ok - so Lenny and Sam hearing the numbers in June is complete speculation based on one of the many shift-change timeline calculations attempts. So, we don't really "know" it was June, but it's a calulated guess.
But we don't know where in the shift cycle it would have been be on the day of the crash, right?
We also know that something distrupted the protocol before Demond arrived.
Me: Precisely! It's conjecture that the crash coincided with a potential shift change (frankly, I'd say the odds were heavily against it, unless the shift change CAUSED the crash). Likewise, it's anybody's guess as to when DHARMA industries initiated the first shift as part of the new protocol. They may have started the new protocol in the late 70's and then figured out it might be a good idea to throw in an instructional film, which they happened to make in 1980. It's feasible that there had been two, maybe even 3 shifts already.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
But we don't know where in the shift cycle it would have been be on the day of the crash, right?
We also know that something distrupted the protocol before Demond arrived.
The fact that they were able to arrive at all makes me think that the crash occurred ON the shift change day. That's why I asked Sneaker to start with Sept 22, 2004.
I think the 540 days is a natural cycle on the island which has remained constant through all the modifications. Everyone from the Black Rock to the Losties has arrived on this schedule AND we could use it to project a date in the future when they will be able to leave. If the 540 days has been changed, it would be impossible to calculate any of this.
There are a LOT of assumptions being made here, but right now, that's all we have to go on.
The periodic number broadcasts seemed to have signalled the arrivals on the island. When Danielle changed the transmission, the numbers were no longer heard and the replacements were no longer able to get to the island. Then Hurley released the numbers to the world and O815 crashes on the beach.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
cac: Let me see if I can figure out the formula to get her arrival:
Iterations: 17294533 Length of Danielle's message: 30 seconds Time Danielle's message played: x years Length of Numbers message: 6 seconds (one second per number?) Time Numbers message played: y years Time since message started: 24 years
x + y = 24
Don't we have a math person to do this? I'm sure it can't be that hard.
Okay, you posted this while I was posting my other one, I think.
That might answer my question about the numbers being broadcast, if the transmission was always running, but by some means didn't always reach the outside world.
I'm still a bit confused on the counting issue, though. Either of the previous calculations (20 or 30 sec for 11 or 16 years) assumes that the count reset itself when Danielle changed it. If it didn't, then it's time for more math...
Hmm. I think I've calculated that the count couldn't have started in 1980, assuming that it's 2004 on the show, if the messages were 30 seconds or shorter.
24 years = 756864000 seconds (not accounting for leap years, too lazy) 756864000 seconds / 17294533 = 43.76 seconds per iteration
Now that I think about it, it's obvious. Assuming that her message was 30 seconds only took us back 16 years and 5 months, even without the numbers. Her message (as well as the numbers' message) would have had to be longer for 17294533 iterations to last 24 years. Shorter messages would mean that the count would be much higher than it is.
For instance, if the numbers started transmitting a 6-second message, it would only take about 3 years and 4 months to reach 17294533.
Anyone else like math problems and want to check my work?
I *think* I'm convinced (how's that for certain?) that the counter reset itself when Danielle changed the message. I don't know how else the count could be that low.
by: LostinBlue (2451 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 18, 2005
Reading the post earlier about the 5th dimension and remembering the explanations for the traveling in A Wrinkle in Time using dots, lines and shapes... I connected that to all the shapes that we see on the show.
Triangles, pentagons... could they point toward the wonky time hypothesis?
by: chenmeina (30 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
This Danielle stuff (here and in LostinBlue's great Danielle thread!) is driving me crazy!
A few thoughts... I like the idea that Danielle changing the transmission upset the replacements plan, but there is another possibility, I think. Maybe we don't know (yet) what upset the replacements plan and the Numbers broadcast was initiated as a signal to Dharma off the island that something had gone wrong... If Lenny and Sam heard the transmission when it started (16 years ago) that could give us a time for the second "incident". Maybe this line of thinking works if Danielle came later than 1988 and the counter did not re-set.
Back to the idea that Danielle may have upset the replacements plan by changing the transmission... If so, maybe she knew what she was doing... I think the general consensus here has been that she doesn't want rescued because then she could never be re-united with Alex... but mme's encouragement to look at what Danielle said about rescue in light of what we now know about Dharma makes me think that someone on the island developed a technology that Danielle finds extremely dangerous (maybe that involves Alex, maybe not)... discovery and invention seems to have been part of Dharma's purpose... maybe Danielle messed with them intentionally; when she thinks that Sayid is an "other" in Solitary, she says that he was looking for her to get "answers"... what answers would she have that the "others" would want?
Like I said, this Danielle stuff is driving me crazy!
On a somewhat related topic, a question for cac and/or ME: are you still thinking that the antenna is an Orion Delta T antenna? I remember reading that find last spring... I didn't know if anything has happened to change your minds about that... Thanks!
by: chenmeina (30 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
cac said: The fact that they were able to arrive at all makes me think that the crash occurred ON the shift change day. That's why I asked Sneaker to start with Sept 22, 2004.
I agree and I think that the fact that Desmond arrived 3 years earlier supports this guess... He could have arrived at the October 2001 shift change day...
Did anyone ever count the hash marks on the mural? I tried and I thought there were forty-something(maybe I'm wrong, I don't remember for sure)... so now I'm wondering if the hash marks were the days Desmond was waiting for "him" from the last shift change time (which could be the same as the Flight 815 crash time). If so, then maybe that's why the number of days they'd been on the island seemed familiar or significant to him... This could be way off base, though, I need to go find a mural screencap again, I guess!
by: dad_of_4_ (2150 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 05, 2005
just wanted to be 1000
Desmond = sleeping Hero? started a thread if anyone wants to discuss
A king in the mountain, also known as a sleeping hero, is a repeated motif that appears in a number of folktales. The basic motif is that in a cave in a remote, high mountaintop, a legendary hero dwells sleeping, along with a body of his armed retainers. The hero is usually a historical figure of some military consequence in the history of the nation where the mountain is located. The presence of the hero is unsuspected, until some herdsman wanders into the cave, typically looking for a lost animal, and sees the hero. The stories almost always mention the detail that the hero has grown a long beard, indicative of the long time he has slept beneath the mountain.
Often the hero speaks with the herdsman. Their conversation typically involves the hero asking, "Do the eagles (or ravens) still circle the mountaintop?"
Is the world still out there?
The herdsman, or a mysterious voice, replies, "Yes, they still circle the mountaintop."
"Then begone! My time has not yet come."
The herdsman is usually supernaturally harmed by the experience: he ages rapidly, he emerges with his hair turned white, and often he dies after repeating the tale. The story goes on to say that the king in the mountain sleeps in the mountain, awaiting a summons to arise with his knights and defend the nation in a time of deadly peril; and the omen that presages his rising will be the extinction of the birds that trigger his awakening.
The motif is interesting in that it combines the idea of a supernatural national defender with the concept of conservation. A number of kings, rulers, and fictional characters have become attached to this story.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Ahhhhh..... Finally, the comforting knowledge that a new episode is a mere traditional week away.....
I saw nothing new in either the episode or the preview. I see someone suggested that this time Jack mumbles "Desmond" as he goes off to fetch the screen. And also (this might be so) the photo of Desmond & "who is she?" seemed to have better color & contrast.
Less than a week, a new set of thoughtful questions.....
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Also, did A send in her little helper with the plot points info?
Not yet, Blue. And I actually know that because I'm caught up! It only took a week.
Antenna:
Chen: On a somewhat related topic, a question for cac and/or ME: are you still thinking that the antenna is an Orion Delta T antenna? I remember reading that find last spring... I didn't know if anything has happened to change your minds about that... Thanks!
Yes, I still think so.
Geodesic domes:
Eva: Did you guys know that Walt Disney originally meant EPCOT Center as a "utopian, planned urban society"? And doesn't EPCOT center resemble those funky domes we've been seeing?
Sneaker mentioned the ones in Montreal and NYC, and there's also one in Vancouver, again left over from Expo 86. It's interesting that they were all built for World Fairs and now there's one on our little island that also seems to draw people from all over the world.
4 Days:
cac: It's been 4 days since the raft left. One of the questions for another episode this season had 4 days for the answer.
Yep, I'm quoting myself. Does anyone remember what the other 4 days referred to?
I think we should look at this along with that spiffy new timeline we have here.
Geiger counters:
Song: Remember in part 2 or 3 of this thread we talked about the geiger counter on the far table in Locke's room when he was on the phone with Helen in Walkabout? (NOT the table next to the bed, the one across the room). My husband pointed out another one, same type, falling from the shelf in the hatch when Desmond was looking for the jar of computer-fixing-whatevers.
Did we ever figure out exactly why Locke had the geiger counter in Tustin? I think we speculated that the military base might be the source of radiation.
Locke and Desmond's front door: ME: The man spends DAYS with poor Boone digging out that dang hatch, when there was a big ole front door right around the corner. I mean, the Tail-Enders apparently found the front door to THEIR Station.
Maybe that's exactly why he didn't find it: he was too focussed on excavating the hatch that he didn't even think to look around for a front door.
Claire & Thomas:
The vegetarian cookbooks might associate Thomas with Kate, as she also said she's a vegetarian. Perhaps he's her twin?
Glass Bead Game:
wadja: Also, someone mentioned the Glass Bead Game a few pages back, and I did some research on it. It's a game of forming connections among elements from different areas of knowledge, jumping from science to music to art etc., and the goal of the game is to connect everything on the playing board into a yin/yang oneness. Each separate group of concepts is called an island. Add in all the game references we've been given, and this just can't be a coincidence.
That sounds even better than the island being a big ol' game of Moustrap!
I still have more to say, but that's enough for now.
by: SOShelpReturns (303 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 30, 2005
cac: I am so behind on this thread, I have read through all of 1. I know, I know .. I'll never catch up. but before I get into discussion I'd like to make sure I dont repeat an already solved question. I am keeping a list of questions and thoughts and as I read deleting or adding based on the thread discussions. The word perfect (I think is was worked fine), are you able to send me the others? I can go mail you my "real" email so you dont have to worry about file size.
by: cac120 (513 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
SOS, I think I owe you an email, don't I? I'm getting Brax to put the old parts of this thread on his site. Can you wait a few days until that's done, or do you need part 2 immediately?
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac:Maybe that's exactly why he didn't find it: he was too focussed on excavating the hatch that he didn't even think to look around for a front door.
Yes, that's what I gathered too. I guess it was more of a rhetorical question. It DOES seem hard to believe he never noticed the front door though, seeing that he seems to feel he knows the island so well.
The vegetarian cookbooks might associate Thomas with Kate, as she also said she's a vegetarian. Perhaps he's her twin?
That's right - I did hear that all vegetarians are related. They MUST be twins!
Ok, j/k!!!!!!
The reason I made note that there's a strong possibility that Thomas might be a vegetarian is because I know Kate said she's a vegetarian too.... so I made that connection. I don't necessarily think they're related or anything though. I think it's intersting that Kate had Tom, and she's a vegetarian, and Claire had Thomas, and he's a vegetarian (I'm guessing).
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Yes, that's what I gathered too. I guess it was more of a rhetorical question. It DOES seem hard to believe he never noticed the front door though, seeing that he seems to feel he knows the island so well.
With all the trouble they had trying to open the hatch, you'd think they'd be driven to look for another entrance. Why start excavating all that area AROUND the hatch unless you thought you'd find evidence of alother way to get in. And once you realize IT'S BIG, you'd HAVE to consider a local survey-- if not just to consider the slope of the local terrain and where runoff might expose access or compromise the integrity of this impervious box.
But it sure did help drive the plot and set up that wicked cliff hanger....
by: lucky4me8 (276 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
I really like the idea that the island itself is on an 18-month (540 day) cycle, whether there's some sort of funky gate-opening at that point or not. That the island, or whatever power source it holds, is self-regulating (or scientist-regulated).
Maybe exposure or tolerance for this dictated the time limits in the hatch (and maybe the injections as well), especially if they're working in close proximity to the source.
by: SOShelpReturns (303 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 30, 2005
SOS, I think I owe you an email, don't I? I'm getting Brax to put the old parts of this thread on his site. Can you wait a few days until that's done, or do you need part 2 immediately?
I'll wait. Thank you so much. I will try and stay away form this one until I read and reseach up til now ..... do you mind sending me gomail and letting me know its done? Thanks again. (LUUUV this thread).
by: The_Original_G_Man (685 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
Cac ... any chance of a new thread? Particularly if the good Madame is gonna drop some knowledge on us in the near future? This one is gonna get unwieldy if that happens.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Sneaker:With all the trouble they had trying to open the hatch, you'd think they'd be driven to look for another entrance. Why start excavating all that area AROUND the hatch unless you thought you'd find evidence of alother way to get in. And once you realize IT'S BIG, you'd HAVE to consider a local survey-- if not just to consider the slope of the local terrain and where runoff might expose access or compromise the integrity of this impervious box.
But it sure did help drive the plot and set up that wicked cliff hanger....
Yes, and I guess the other thing to consider is, Locke had no idea what the hatch was until they were inside... it could have just been a well or septic tank or something that wouldn't have needed another entrance (though he did notice it was hinged, but no handle on the outside).
Anyway, the Tailies probably just happened to stumble upon the front door of their station first, and never found the hatch that went with it. So, I'll stop thinking abuot it. I love how it all played out so far, and that's all that's important! src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
G man:Cac ... any chance of a new thread? Particularly if the good Madame is gonna drop some knowledge on us in the near future? This one is gonna get unwieldy if that happens.
by: The_Original_G_Man (685 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jun 01, 2005
Sneaker, ME:
As we haven't seen the other entrance yet, I think I can buy into an explanation along the lines that it was extremely well hidden / camouflaged or some such thing. One would think that Locke and Boone would have scouted things out a bit to try and find another entrance, but I'm content with going along with the above.
by: pssrailguy (271 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Iterations: 17294533 Length of Danielle's message: 30 second
17294533x30sec=518,767,200 seconds 518,767,200sec/60sec=8,646,120minutes 8,646,120min/60min=144102hours 144,102hours/24hrperday=6,004.25days 6,004.25days/365daysper year=16.45 years
just to double check any "transmission length" calculations...have we been using the total length of the transmission segment (i.e.; Danielle's message plus the time it takes to say "iteration...") or just the length of Danielle's message?
Another question. We have obviously based our calulations on Sayid's information. I don't remeber, but is it possible to determine the length of the message ourselves (i.e.; does the entire message play unbroken for us to hear on the show)? Although somewhat insignificant, that extra time of the "iteration" portion could be quite significant over 10 to 20 years.
by: what_went_ping (43 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 26, 2005
Iterations: 17294533 Length of Danielle's message: 30 second
17294533x30sec=518,767,200 seconds 518,767,200sec/60sec=8,646,120minutes 8,646,120min/60min=144102hours 144,102hours/24hrperday=6,004.25days 6,004.25days/365daysper year=16.45 years
I just did this math yesterday, too. I seem to remember someone in the beginning actually timing the message, and it wasn't 30 seconds, it was shorter. I did the math for a 20 second message, and it came out to only ~11 years. That's a big difference. I haven't gotten around to re-watching it to time it myself, though.
by: blissfullylost (195 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Feb 17, 2005
Has anybody wondered what Helen was attending anger management classes for? I wonder what happened in her past that made her so angry? If I remember right, she's been mad for 20 years? Did anyone figure out what date that Locke flashback took place in?
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Sneaker, ME:
As we haven't seen the other entrance yet, I think I can buy into an explanation along the lines that it was extremely well hidden / camouflaged or some such thing. One would think that Locke and Boone would have scouted things out a bit to try and find another entrance, but I'm content with going along with the above.
But then again, I'm fairly gullible though.
Actually, when Hurley takes Rose insdie for the first time, we DO see Desmond's front door. Looked to me like a possible overgrown cave entrance.
One thing we don't know is how far it is between the Jungle entrance and the double airlock doors. We have some indication from the tailies hatch that the walk from Jungle to interior could be 50m or so.
ME: Well or Septic tank? Beyond the question of why a well or septic tank access point would only be opened from INSIDE ("when the water is ready to come forth, it will", or "when it's time to pump out the septic tank, the bacteria & fungus will open it themselves" -- in which case, I'm NOT sticking around for that!!), the presence of either a well or septic system would imply that it's a utility service for some NEARBY permanent habitat.
I'm not arguing (well yeah, maybe it looks that way src="http://forums.go.com/images/emoticons/happy.gif" border=0 onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>) - we'll have to simply agree that it WAS a cool plot device.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
Has anybody wondered what Helen was attending anger management classes for? I wonder what happened in her past that made her so angry? If I remember right, she's been mad for 20 years? Did anyone figure out what date that Locke flashback took place in?
While I sense this may be a deliberate ruse by the writers, I still have suspicions about Helen. Her driving desire to change one thing in Locke's life: "Stop going to that place & bothering that man" makes me think she was hired by Evil daddy to get Locke off his back (or FRONT, as in front door, and also Front incision where they implant kidney transplants). In the event Helen is an employee of Evil Daddy, her "anger management" past could be bogus.
BUt once she got Locke to stop going there, I guess she'd get paid.... And then what to do with Locke? Unless she only get her money so long as he stays away-- if he shows up, she does not get that week's check....
Wouldn't it be easier just to have Locke whacked? O'course, then you lose that valuable 2nd kidney. My, my.... Sick thought that he'd be keeping him alive until he needs that Final Harvest....
Since we know Helen (Bundy) is NOT the same Helen (phone), where is she? I know it's been suggested she dies in the same event that paralyzes Locke. But is that an accident? If Evil Daddy figures Locke's not coming back anyway (say he moves back to his Norwegian Penthouse, or off to his private Tropical Island) , maybe it's time to terminate Helen's contract (with extreme prejudice).
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Sneaker: ME: Well or Septic tank? Beyond the question of why a well or septic tank access point would only be opened from INSIDE ("when the water is ready to come forth, it will", or "when it's time to pump out the septic tank, the bacteria & fungus will open it themselves" -- in which case, I'm NOT sticking around for that!!), the presence of either a well or septic system would imply that it's a utility service for some NEARBY permanent habitat.
I'm not arguing (well yeah, maybe it looks that way ) - we'll have to simply agree that it WAS a cool plot device.
Good lord, Sneaker - give me a break. I was just tossing out ideas... and not even ideas of what I thought the hatch was... but just grabbing at straws as to how it could have been anything - but Locke wouldn't necessarily think it let to an underground research facility that would have a front door.
I obviously didn't ever think the hatch was going to be a well or septic tank. I was just trying to do a little critical thinking - not claiming that's what Locke thought. My point was simply, Locke had no idea what the hatch was. WE didn't know until we found out during the premiere... though we, in this thread (long before you arrived here) did figure it out, as A. will tell you. All I was saying is, hindsight is 20/20, and I was trying to give Locke the benefit of the doubt for not finding the front door. I wasn't claiming that he could have thought the hatch was a well or septic tank (and did you notice that I said this wasn't likely because there was no handle on the outside?)?
Given all of this, if you read A's Flysail/Claire story, you'll find the idea isn't that far fetched, even though that isn't what I thought the hatch was.
But really - there's nothing to argue or disagree about - I was just tossing out ideas to cut Locke some slack -I wasn't saying it IS what I thought, or Locke thought.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Sneaker: While I sense this may be a deliberate ruse by the writers, I still have suspicions about Helen. Her driving desire to change one thing in Locke's life: "Stop going to that place & bothering that man" makes me think she was hired by Evil daddy to get Locke off his back (or FRONT, as in front door, and also Front incision where they implant kidney transplants). In the event Helen is an employee of Evil Daddy, her "anger management" past could be bogus.
I noticed last night that after the meeting, Helen told Locke that sometimes she wants to stand up and shout at them all "Get over it!"
Later, when Cooper gets in Locke's car and tells him to bug off, one of the last statments he makes to Locke was "Get over it!"
It almost made me wonder if he was having Locke bugged... that he had heard Helen. But I suppose she coudl have been hired by Cooper. Unlikely, but possible.
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
No issue ME-- I got yah.
I'm still in Chapter 2. At first it looked like this might have been a participation story, like "add what you want". Did it start that way and became a single author narrative?
Sure wish Fly had lingered with Danielle a couple more minutes (he's as bad as Sayid!).
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Sneaker:I'm still in Chapter 2. At first it looked like this might have been a participation story, like "add what you want". Did it start that way and became a single author narrative?
It's always been a single author narrative, I believe.
Sneaker: Hey! Maybe that's why he visited him in the car! He bugged it!
But Helen made that statement before Cooper got in Locke's car. I can't think of why Cooper would want to bug Locke's car though - since Cooper mainly wanted his son to stop stalking him. However, if Helen was working for Cooper, and she went back and told him about what she said to Locke about wanting to tell people in the group to "Get over it!", it might have stuck in his head, and that's why he said it to Locke.
Who knows though - might have all just been a coincidence... though I definitely think we were supposed to notice the connection in the "Ge over it!" statements. I mean, the writers used the same statement in the same epi - there's something there...
by: Sneaker123 (834 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 26, 2005
I posted this elsewhere but wanted some feedback from the minds at work here: from the thread on who is supposed to be on the flight and who is not:
If Sun was NOT supposed to be on the flight, but Jin WAS (let's say Mr. Paik is part of some Evil Daddy conspiracy and actually orchestrated Sun's English training & escape plan and hand picked Jin to participate in the Island experiment), then how could one be certain that Jin would STILL board the flight after discovering Sun had dissappeared?
Maybe that was the purpose of Mr. Washroom-- in the event Sun DID take the car and leave Jin, he'd approach the distraught Jin and tell him Sun had been kidnapped for INSURANCE and that he'd just better get on that plane, do the LA job, and get back to Korea, if he wants to see her again. (Naturally, the conspiracy anticipate he'll never even make it to LA).
But she didn't leave Jin. I imagine some FB scene in the future showing Mr. Washroom on his cell phone frantically speaking Korean: "No wait! I'm tellin' yah! SHE GOT ON THE PLANE!!............ Yeah, HE got on too, WITH the watch.........THE CAR WAS THERE I tell yah-- she SAW it, but just stayed with HIM!..... No I don't know why.... YOU tell him... NOT me----<click>".
I wonder, if Mr. Paik gets so upset that Sun ended up on the island, do you think he might try a "rescue/kidnapping" to get her off the island?
I know there are plenty of folks who think Fate is the overiding factor of who got on the plane, not some diabolical plan. I see so much in the plot about balance that I have to suspect there are equal parts FATE and PLAN manipulating the flight's outcome.
by: SuzQdotcom (9 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 10, 2005
I noticed last night that after the meeting, Helen told Locke that sometimes she wants to stand up and shout at them all "Get over it!"
I didn't rewatch last night very closely, but the first time I watched it, I had the impression that Helen was the counselor/moderator of the group rather than a participant. In leading the group and listening to all their stories, it would make sense that sometimes she'd just want to yell 'Get Over It'.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
I wonder, if Mr. Paik gets so upset that Sun ended up on the island, do you think he might try a "rescue/kidnapping" to get her off the island?
I don't believe that Mr. Paik involved at all in some plan or conspiracy to get Jin or anyone else on the plane, nor do I believe anyone else conspired to get anyone on the plane as part of some plan to get them to the island to do experiments or anything else, so I can't really comment on your questions or thoughts about this.
Most of them made a choice to get on the plane, and though there might have been some manipulation involved (not orchestrated plan type of manipulation though), in some cases, it was still choice.
And backgammon is right - random chance plays a part, and fate... but I don't think orchestrated conspiracy plays a part at all in getting on the plane and to the island (except the pschic's plant to get Claire on the plane).
SuzQ: I didn't rewatch last night very closely, but the first time I watched it, I had the impression that Helen was the counselor/moderator of the group rather than a participant. In leading the group and listening to all their stories, it would make sense that sometimes she'd just want to yell 'Get Over It'.
I was confused about whether Helen was the moderator or not when I first saw it (especially where Locke refers to it as "your meeting" to her afterwards), but now I see that Helen was definitely not the moderator - it was the woman with frizzy blonde hair and glasses who was talking to him during the meeting.
by: cleatusB (6 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: May 25, 2005
Hi All! Whew, finally made it to the end of the thread!
I have a thought on Sam and Lenny and the numbers that I haven't seen mentioned...
I haven't seen the episode in a while ( haven't gotten to it on the DVD's yet), so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know is that Lenny was in the mental institution where Hurley found him constantly repeating these numbers. Hurley later got the story from Sam's wife that they were in the navy, and they heard these numbers broadcasting 16 years ago. Was there more to the story? If that's it, why did Lenny end up in the mental instituion repeating them? Perhaps Sam and Lenny were in the hatch, entering these numbers every 108 minutes, and Lenny "lost it". Perhaps that's part of the 2nd incident.
by: MEandthesea (1199 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cleatus: I haven't seen the episode in a while ( haven't gotten to it on the DVD's yet), so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know is that Lenny was in the mental institution where Hurley found him constantly repeating these numbers. Hurley later got the story from Sam's wife that they were in the navy, and they heard these numbers broadcasting 16 years ago. Was there more to the story? If that's it, why did Lenny end up in the mental instituion repeating them? Perhaps Sam and Lenny were in the hatch, entering these numbers every 108 minutes, and Lenny "lost it". Perhaps that's part of the 2nd incident.
Hi cleatus!
We don't know what exactly led Lenny to require treatment in a mental institution, but we do know that he and Sam heard the numbers 16 years ago while stationed at a listening post, listening to long wave transmissions in the Pacific. Hurley learned this from Sam's wife - Martha Toomey.
by: dad_of_4_ (2150 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Aug 05, 2005
Been trying to get my arms around the "hero's Journey" - Mythical Hero Journey etc....was googling and one of the references was to Jeremiah Johnson with Robert Redford.....
Bassically Ulysses in the Rockie Mountains....complete with a cyclops, etc....
Hadn't thought of this movie in years...THE BEST movie I ever saw as a kid...
For about a month, me and a bud were on a Jeremiah Johnson kick and went so far as to try and shoot squirrels with Bow and arrows or hit a pidgeon with a rock....
If you've never seen it, do so today....puts the whole Joeseph Campbell's "hero's Journey" and "Fool's Journey" into focus.....
Re: 
Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 9
reply
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