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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:40:53)
Menwith Hill, England fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Shoal Bay, Australia - targets Indonesian satellites
Leitrim, Canada - targets Latin American satellites
Bad Aibling, Germany
Misawa, Japan
Found here - which tells all about Echelon:
http://home.flash.net/~bob001/echelon.htm
Ok, finally found some Echelon resources that metions Pine Gap:
http://www.shire.net/big.brother/echelon.htm
The other thing that's interesting, is that the manufacturers of the huge satellites, like the Orion, are same manufacturers of plans... like Bowing, and Lockheed Martin. Interesting to see the table on this page.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 06:25 PM
by: lostintexasusa (192 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 01, 2005
Regarding NUMBERS....I hope I can make this make sense! We know that the promotional posters that were out before the show started said flight 280 but obviously it was changed to flight 815 when the show started...that must mean that while the "numbers" play a significant part (a huge part I would guess!) they must not be related to something EXACT or HISTORICAL (like longitude/latitude or significant dates in history or adding up to something)...if they did it would have been to hard to just change the flight number to 815 and still make it work. Make sense? I still think the numbers are "huge" and I think they must have touched all of the survivors or the flight itself in some way for them to have ended up there but I don't think the numbers can be traced to something more "exact". Does that make sense?
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:41:45)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 06:39 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Yakima Firing Center, near Seattle, Washington - Pacific and Far East satellites (Is this near where Kate's dad was stationed in Washington?)
Ok, EXCITING FIND HERE! Kate's dad was stationed in Fort Lewis, WA.
Yakima Firing Center (also known as Yakima Training Station), IS very connected to Fort Lewis! So there's a connection between Ft. Lewis and Kate's dad... Fort Lewis and Yakima Training Center...which connects Ft. Lewis to Echelon... Echelon is connected to Pine Gap, and Lenny and Sam... which connects Kate's dad to Lenny and Sam... and Echelon, and NSA!
From a message board I found on the web:
"When I was stationed at Fort Lewis we did all of our gunnery and battalion/brigade manuever training at Yakima Firing Center, which is on a desolate series of steppes near the North American town of Yakima. And trust me, its frigging desolate. I think there's about three damn trees in the whole Firing Center, which is nearly as big as the National Training Center down in the Mojave. Interesting location to test the Mechs!"
And an excerpt from an article about base closures:
Fort Lewis is a significantly large Army installation that is also on the chopping block. "In our view, Fort Lewis cannot successfully accomplish its mission without the Yakima Firing Center and the adjacent McChord AFB." McChord is home to one of the largest C-17 cargo fleets in the nation, one of the most advanced military transports in the world."
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:19 PM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
way to go ME!!!!!
connections...that is awesome. i am still trying to catch up from being gone the last 4 days...but saw this and am very impressed.
i cannot wait to see what more comes of these connections. one thing that hit me...might not be of any relevance at all...but the air station in tustin, ca was also closed down...just another similarity (if ft. lewis was actually closed).
song, great info back on page 21ish and the psychic connection is interesting too. my brain is on overload...don't recommend staying away for so long!
i am going back to catch up some more, but i can't wait to dive into this stuff some more with you guys!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:22 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Sorry this is so long.
Pine Gap:
Unofficially the facility, namely the TOP SECRET underground portions, were used to further experiments such as MKULTRA and others first conceived at Montauk.
Many claim that there is a "Montauk Project". This statement is incorrect. In fact, there were many TOP SECRET projects conducted at Montauk Point. However, before we go into what they were, here is some background.
Camp Hero, located on the tip of Long Island, New York, was used during World War I by the United States Army. During the late 1950's it was turned into a S.A.G.E. radar station for the United States Air Force. It wasn't until the the 1970's and 1980's that the base at Montauk became a focal point of covert government projects.
The base was perfect for these TOP SECRET operations. Along with its buildings and radar systems be base had a massive underground layer, which comprised of tunnels and large areas.
Many projects most likely remain TOP SECRET. However we are aware of mind control and time travel experiments. Such mind control experiments include the recently declassified CIA MKULTRA project.
The time travel projects are a little more extensive. It is reported that the radar systems were used to transmit electromagnetic waves to a "sensitive" individual, who was surrounded by tempered metal coils. Some reports that the individual was able to "see" a "rift" in time.
The 1950s proved to be a very exciting decade for the Central Intelligence Agency. The CIA was looking for a new means to gain the upper hand in Mind Wars. The Agency developed a number of TOP SECRET projects which were grouped together under the name MKULTRA.
...
The CIA's MKULTRA project didn't limit itself to LSD. Other activities it pursued were hypnosis, telepathy, precognition, photokinesis, and remote viewing.
Some people believe that understanding multiple realities is the key to understanding time. Quantum comes from the Latin root "quantis" which means quantity. Quantum physics deals with a vast arena of physical phenomena which show quantum behavior on a time and space scale well within the world of human perception.
Quantum physics led us to the idea of the tesseract.
According to many philosophers and scientists we exist in a number of parallel realities ... which we access through our dreams, remote viewing, extrasensory perception, meditation or artificially induced mental states. ... this idea is the entire reason for the Philadelphia Experiment and the Montauk Project in the first place.
This is similar to the Aboriginal idea of Dreamland.
It also ties in all the ways we've seen how everyone is Special.
Many strange experiences seem to have taken place on Long Island, some in the near vicinity of Brookhaven Laboratory. Have a really good laugh at this one. A couple of years ago there were two separate reports of kangaroos seen hopping around on Long Island. Did they disappear from a zoo? No, they just appeared there, say the people who have researched the story quite thoroughly. How did they get there? Well, there are people who claim that i.e. there are dimensional portals, time warps, or whatever you want to call them around the planet. For example it has been rumored that people enter a building of Area 51, seemingly into a short corridor or loop and walk out at Pine Gap Australia. If Brookhaven or Montauk are into dimensional portals construction then perhaps the poor kangaroos just hopped in from the other end - couldn't read the one-way signs? Who knows? Someone does!
This sounds an awful lot like my theory of the polar bears wandering into a portal in the arctic and coming out on the island.
back in the early 1970's, the Montauk group, (reptilians, grays, Nazis, U.S. factions), became interested in programming children and then having them assimilate back into society as "sleepers" but also later in maturity as educated professional citizens working as lawyers, doctors, politicians, etc. When the secret government wanted to activate them, they could be answerable on both a psychotronic / hypnotic basis or verbal command.
Emily said that Locke was part of a design. It also mentions that street kids and derelicts were grabbed to be used in the experiments.
Children growing up in this program become highly trained assassins, assignment couriers traveling backward and forward in time via the Montauk Chair and taking their physical body with them as they walk through the portals to carry out assignments. He told me personally that these mind control human products rank higher than Delta Forces, which rank higher than Navy Seals, and one of the primary purposes of all are to destroy what comes through dimensional portals throughout the planet. Okay, one more little twig on my observation around the world that wherever dimensional portals seem to exist so do Navy Seals. This was bizarre information for me at the time but with what I have gotten from many other sources since that time, such as the interdimensional star wars now in progress, all is making more and more sense to my conscious mind.
This could explain how someone was there to take the hairbrushes.
The U.S. government began a weather control project in the late 1940's under the code name "phoenix". ... Also noted that [radar ring] anomalies have strengthened systems to cause flooding and broken up others to caugh drought. After researching locations of the epicenters of these anomalies, we have found that at least 80% can be pinpointed on USAF bases.
This might explain the sudden rain storms we've seen and how Locke can predict them.
One of the fundamentals in the Montauk project is something called psychotronic technology, or the interfacing of mind to computer ... which is the way psychic Duncan Cameron created, by visualization in his right brain, the portals to other times and dimensions. What you can visualize you can create ... well known and accepted ancient and modern wisdom.
IS this what Walt did with the second polar bear?
In a practical application I later used what I had learned with Silva in working with a stroke patient whom the doctors said could not further develop new neural pathways between his damaged left brain and his rightbrain. This was a little past his 3 year possible recovery or "forget trying and give up" period. He and I together created on my white board in various colors symbols for words that had no visual connotation. From applying these "visuals" he was able to relearn to read.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:42:32)
I am convinced that thought forms do start to materialize. Kain asked all of us to revolve with our arms extended and clockwise as far as we could possibly reach remembering in the landscape what we first saw and then what we last viewed. Then Kain asked us to close our eyes and visualize the exercise with the ability to reach further than we had been physically able to do. I did that. Then he told us to open our eyes and try the clockwise movement again - and I did - and to my astonishment I accomplished an additional 30 degrees. Is this the psychic side of sports I have always heard about? Visualize the ball going into the basket and it will happen? "What you see is what you get" they say here in Rainbow, Texas!fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:38 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
lostintexas, have you read my theory on the numbers?
The numbers fit with the latitude and longitude of several of the locations that have been mentioned on the show. Specifically, they can be used to locate the place where the plane crashed, the Canadian arctic (source of polar bears) and Nigeria (where the drug plane came from), which means that the numbers are the 'addresses' of the portals to the island.
As they show up in the episodes, we see how the characters have been given the numbers by other people. I think the numbers have been released into the world to see who is 'Special.'
The publicity of Hurley's lottery win caused the numbers to be broadcast around the world. This "opened the box" and set everone who had been given the numbers on the path to the island.
Of course, other people happened to be on the plane, but they didn't survive because they didn't have the numbers and the 'Specialness.' I think that Boone only had the numbers because of Shannon, so he survived, but shouldn't have.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:40 PM
by: Picard47AT (18 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Have fun with these everyone, Watch with Kristin's chat transcripts.....
SPOILERS.....
From ellie: Is the person poisoning someone on Lost a woman?
I can tell you this. The victim is not a woman.
From Sarah: Do the people who sail away on the raft ever come back?
Here's what I know: There are people on that raft, and they have shot some scenes out at sea with those characters. One of the people on that raft I can not imagine they would let go. However, two of the others have already wrapped production in Hawaii. Those are the facts!
From tivoteacher: What does "already wrapped production in Hawaii" mean? Like, for good?
I can't say! But I can tell you this: The Lost fans had a fabulous event on Saturday, and two of my faves were there: Daniel Dae Kim and Harold Perrineau. According to Daniel, "I think Jin is going to start speaking English. He's going to integrate into the group more. I think his role as an outsider has come to an end. And he'll be making friends." Like who? "Michael. Michael seems to be his new best friend." Meanwhile, Harold was freaked out by the very question many of you have been asking: Is Walt evil? "What? I hadn't heard that theory! He's my son. I can't even fathom the idea that he's evil."
From Elizabeth: Will we have to say goodbye to another Lost survivor this season? We're still in mourning for poor Boone.
Ready for this? Sitting down? Kleenex and first-aid kit sitting by? Mother programmed into speed dial? Yes. Someone else is getting written off the show.
From elijahsgurl99: Next Lost castaway to bite the dust: male or female?
Show of hands. Who wants to know?
From maebytonight: You're gonna get us started about the Lost castoff again? I might as well start. Any hint on who's leaving? Male? Female? Jack?
Whaddya say we not do that again and drive ourselves crazy? I will tell you this: Someone is dying this season. I think someone else is dying early next season. And I've heard the second already knows, because of contract negotiations going on, and is none too pleased and driving something of a hard bargain.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:48 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Thanks for the spoilers, Picard.
They must be close enough to wrapping for the season that anyone being gone from Hawaii already really shouldn't mean much.
I think the raft will end up with Michael, Walt, Sawyer and Jin on it. Of those, I would say that Michael is most expendable, closely followed by Jin. I can't see them killing off Sawyer or Walt because both have so much potential.
Could Locke being shot be real? Did they show it to us so that we'd think it was too obvious and rule him out?
I don't think we know enough about the end of this season to make any sort of prediction about who will die at the beginning of the next one. Maybe that's a clue about the cliff hanger leaving someone's life in jeopardy.
The contract negotiation thing sounds like someone wants a lot of money to come back for one or two episodes. That sounds reasonable to me, since their death will probably be another surprise and it's difficult to look for other work when you're trying to keep that secret.
I've been watching closely for signs of poisoning and not finding anything. Sawyer's headaches were because he needed glasses and I think Jack's current condition can be attributed to running out of his medication at a time of added stress.
Does anyone remember an interview with Matt Fox where he said something about getting seasick while filming a scene on a boat? It was quite a while ago and we haven't seen Jack on a boat yet, so what was that about? Or was he just talking about being on a boat, not filming a scene on one?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 07:54 PM
by: Picard47AT (18 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
I am starting to think that they are taking the ER approach to Lost. Think about how many main characters have come and gone over the course of ER's 10 year run. There is only like one person from the first season still on the show, Noah Wylie. All the rest went on to other things and new main characters were thrust up to the front to take their place. Seems like they might be doing this with Lost, but just on a faster pace. Michelle Rodriguez is a fairly big star to just guest star in the finale, looks like she might be a main character next season.
At first I was kinda bothered by all of the mystery of who was dying, why fix what ain't broke kind of thinking. Looks like this might be a regular thing over the show's run. I think it might work if you compare it to how ER has done it over the years.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 08:13 PM
by: OneisLost (201 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 21, 2004
Production costs is probably the primary reason for letting people go. When the actors hit it big the salary demands go up. If they are maxing the budget on each episode, someone's got to go.
I don't think Michael would be one to go. I don't think we've seen all of his story yet, especially if he has a family history of "specialness". That's too good a story line to end abruptly.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 08:36 PM
by: lostintexasusa (192 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 01, 2005
cac and ME - thank you both for the extensive research. I look forward to reading it in detail.
cac, thank you for the follow up on the NUMBERS post. Yes I know they tie to the location which just puzzles me even more since they obviously switched out the 280 with 815 just before the show started...wouldn't this have turned their story outline (location, etc..) upside down? Wait a minute...I'm looking at this wrong. I'm focusing on the flight number changing as though that's the important thing and that's not it - the important thing was what was on the hatch, the 4815162342. They probably changed the flight number to match something in the series of numbers at the last minute to just add to the "ongoing mystery" of the numbers. Ok, I get it now! And I like your theory about the "opening the box" to set off a series of events. Thanks!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 08:53 PM
by: DaChasPie (49 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Came across this some time ago, but cac reminded me of it with the talk of wheather satelites and parallel worlds and whatnot.
It's called the doppler effect:
"The Doppler effect is the apparent change in frequency or wavelength of a wave that is perceived by an observer moving relative to the source of the waves."
I recall coming across it while researching astronomy.It can also be applied to other fields such as military, medical and scientific. Here's a link for those interested.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 09:21 PM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
CAC...i just spent hours reading and catching up...my mind is going crazy!
your long post about Montauk...we've read that before, right? i mean hasn't all of that been discussed? or was it just me, in my side reading? because i know i had found the info on the LSD stuff the CIA was doing...
anyway, just wondering if i missed something new or if you were just reiderateing/refresshing us on that info?
ok... i re-read it and paid more attention to how you fit it into your thoughts/theories...was that the point?
also...the part about reintroducing them into society as doctors/lawyers/high functioning, well educated people until a later time when they are "called upon" to assasinate or carry out some mission...does that remind anyone of a movie from the 1970's or 1980's with Charles Bronson? Normal, everyday peole would receive a phone call one day and a voice would recite the Robert Frost poem "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening". The line "and miles to go before I sleep, and miles to go before I sleep" was the main 'trigger'. they would immediately revert to the 'other' person and go perform or carry out the funciton that they were initially trained to do. anyway, just sounds ALOT like this experiment...
like i said...don't go away and try to catch up all at once! it's a killer.
love all of the discussion and just to point out...we ARE a very nice, welcoming group of people. i'm sorry to anyone who get's offended by any help that is offered. it IS a huge amount of information and there are some who are way more familiar with what has/has not been discussed. i for one am greatful for a good point the right direction from time to time.
Ada...thank you for you. please continue to 'help' us along in whatever way you feel like you can.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 18 @ 10:02 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Anni, most of that has been discussed. I started googling Pine Gap and Montauk together and then decided to bring up the relevant bits again to remind us how it fits with what we've learned and theorized since.
texas, they might have changed the numbers because they changed the places they decided to bring things in from.
I was reading the J/K ship tonight and it's been confirmed that Jack lives to see Season 2, not that I was worried about him.
ME, I think that if Ethan comes back, it will turn out that it was his twin whom Charlie shot.
Your research showed that ECHELON intercepts non-military communication. I found one reference to it being used to monitor terrorist communications. Undoubtedly, Sayid would be aware of all this.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:43:48)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 06:41 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: Your research showed that ECHELON intercepts non-military communication. I found one reference to it being used to monitor terrorist communications.
Yes, i found this in much of my research about ECHELON as well. I think intercepting and monitoring terrorist communications is one of, if not the primary focus of ECHELON.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 10:19 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
It's called the doppler effect:
yes, meteorologists utilize the doppler effect every day in determining the weather forecast... it's how they get all those groovy satellite images of clouds and storms fronts moving, etc.
interesting to think about the other ways its used - i hear it mentioned so often, but good to keep it in mind for what we're learning about in the back groun stories.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 03:00 PM
by: searcherofanswers (79 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 18, 2005
I am new here but have been researching some of the clues in this thread. I don't know if this has been discussed yet as I haven't read parts 1,2,and 3. But, I found an interesting website when I googled magnes and black rock.http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/chromag.htm
It brought up chromium as well as manganese. Not being a metallurgist, I'm not exactly sure what everything on that page means but I did notice a few interesting things.
1. Soluble chromium compounds are poisonous.
2. The Perovskite Structure reminded me of a tesseract.(That one may be reaching a bit far.)
3. New Caledonia, where these "transition metals" are mined, is apparently in a "mineral powerhouse" region.
4. New Caledonia is located approximately 1000 miles east of Australia.( I'm not saying this is where the survivors are, but could they possibly be in this same area?)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 03:44 PM
by: fedrich519 (1999 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 13, 2004
Hey gang!
Ada dropped in and gave us some homework.....
Hi guys!
I FINALLY woke up, and someone said I had to come update this for you, so here you are.
The lightbulb changer and the psychic are NOT the same person.
Questions To Look into for "Do No Harm", some clues and some just to help you work through what was important.
These questions are simply meant to make the show a little clearer for you, and to highlight some things that will be coming up again very soon and are important.
1- Take Christian's words to Jack by the pool, and reread or view his speech to Sawyer from Outlaws. Yeah, it's important.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:44:13)
2-Note what Boone is mumbling while semi-conscious in the first few scenes.fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
3-Look at the juxtaposition of Claire and Jack, but not the way that you think. Forget life and death, look at what they are doing and saying. In what way are they mimicing each other?
4-Hurley, Charlie, and Jin are the comic reliefs in a tragedy. What purpose are Sun and Kate serving? Who's pov are they voicing?
5-Blood, blood, all that talk of blood. Bad luck with Boone's blood type, wasn't it?
6-If I haven't driven you nuts with this already, look at the words to the song Heart and Soul, it was chosen for a reason.
7-Claire gave you a clue. Did you hear it?
8-Sarah's toast and Jack's vows
9-Looking for a tough one? Boone said in a different episode that John Locke quotes a philosopher, but it isn't John Locke. And it was put in for a reason.
10-Kiddo
There you go! Something to spend the next week on. Don't let it drive you nuts, this is supposed to be fun!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 03:50 PM
by: she_lost_colo (700 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 19, 2004
Oh, fine, Fed beat me to it! LOL Great clues by our lady, should keep you busy for a while.
The Key to Black Rock thread is history. <sigh> Thanks for reading it, Cac. Saw your post before the thread died. It was sad. Back in it's day, it was THE place to be. Now this thread is.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 03:58 PM
by: fedrich519 (1999 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 13, 2004
Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated. It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticism that condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy. While few philosophers would claim to be nihilists, nihilism is most often associated with Friedrich Nietzsche who argued that its corrosive effects would eventually destroy all moral, religious, and metaphysical convictions and precipitate the greatest crisis in human history. In the 20th century, nihilistic themes--epistemological failure, value destruction, and cosmic purposelessness--have preoccupied artists, social critics, and philosophers. Mid-century, for example, the existentialists helped popularize tenets of nihilism in their attempts to blunt its destructive potential. By the end of the century, existential despair as a response to nihilism gave way to an attitude of indifference, often associated with antifoundationalism.
Friedrich Nietzsche was a German philosopher of the late 19th century who challenged the foundations of traditional morality and Christianity. He believed in life, creativity, health, and the realities of the world we live in, rather than those situated in a world beyond. Central to Nietzsche's philosophy is the idea of "life-affirmation," which involves an honest questioning of all doctrines which drain life's energies, however socially prevalent those views might be. Often referred to as one of the first "existentialist" philosophers, Nietzsche has inspired leading figures in all walks of cultural life, including dancers, poets, novelists, painters, psychologists, philosophers, sociologists and social revolutionaries.
Nietzsche's thought extended a deep influence during the 20th century, especially in Continental Europe. In English-speaking countries, his positive reception has been less resonant. During the last decade of Nietzsche's life and the first decade of the 20th century, his thought was particularly attractive to avant-garde artists who saw themselves on the periphery of established social fashion and practice. Here, Nietzsche's advocacy of new, healthy beginnings, and of creative artistry in general stood forth. His tendency to seek explanations for commonly-accepted values and outlooks in the less-elevated realms of sheer animal instinct was also crucial to Sigmund Freud's development of psychoanalysis. Later, during the 1930's, aspects of Nietzsche's thought were espoused by the Nazis and Italian Fascists, partly due to the encouragement of Elisabeth F?rster-Nietzsche through her solicitations with Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. It was possible for the Nazi interpreters to assemble, quite selectively, various passages from Nietzsche's writings whose juxtaposition appeared to justify war, aggression and domination for the sake of nationalistic and racial self-glorification. Until the 1960's in France, Nietzsche appealed mainly to writers and artists, since the academic philosophical climate was dominated by G.W.F. Hegel's, Edmund Husserl's and Martin Heidegger's thought, along with the structuralist movement of the 1950's. Nietzsche became especially influential in French philosophical circles during the 1960's-1980's, when his "God is dead" declaration, his perspectivism, and his emphasis upon power as the real motivator and explanation for people's actions revealed new ways to challenge established authority and launch effective social critique.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:44:36)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 04:09 PM
by: Dad_of_4 (2174 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 21, 2004
Nietzsche's idea of "the overman" (Ubermensch) is one of the most significant concept in his thinking.
Even though it is mentioned very briefly only in the prologue of Thus Spoke Zarathustra, it might be sensible to conceive that Nietzsche had something in his mind about how a man should be more than just human-all-too-human, regardless if he was one or not. The concept then seems to reveal much about the way Nietzsche saw life.
An overman as described by Zarathustra, the main character in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, is the one who is willing to risk all for the sake of enhancement of humanity.
In contrast to the "last man" whose sole desire is his own comfort and is incapable of creating anything beyond oneself in any form. This should suggest that an overman is someone who can establish his own values as the world in which others live their lives, often unaware that they are not pregiven. This means an overman can affect and influence the lives of others.
In other words, an overman has his own values, independent of others, which affects and dominates others' lives that may not have predetermined values but only herd instinct.
An overman is then someone who has a life which is not merely to live each day with no meanings when nothing in the past and future is more important than the present, or more precisely, the pleasure and happiness in the present, but with the purpose for humanity.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 05:46 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Fed, thanks so much for posting Ada's clues for us! And wow - you're here.. you and Dad both! Long time no see (here)! Yay!
Great info from you both. Could you do us a fav and be sure to post the link to your source for the info - unless you wrote all that off the top of your head? I find it helpful in referring back - and always good to know the source.
Do either of you know exactly what Locke quoted from Neitzche? You posted a lot about Neitzche, but it was unclear to me if we know for sure what Boone heard Locke quote from Nietzche.
The only quote of Nietzche quote that I personally always remember is "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
(I'm note sure if that is EXACTLY how Nietzche worded it or not... but it's a popular quote, and that is more or less what it says).
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 05:47 PM
by: Rainnedrop (100 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Feb 20, 2005
I feel so special that I actually brought up the "kiddo" idea I think in Part 3!usually i'm a day late and a dollar short. Although it's ironic, at the time I said something like, "It probably doesn't mean anything" but worth mentioning!
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:47:58)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 05:51 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Ada: The lightbulb changer and the psychic are NOT the same person.
What on earth is THIS all about? Who in the world thought the lightbulb changer and the psychic were the same person? I never read that in this thread. Does anyone else have any idea where this came from?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 05:57 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Rain, I did remember someone bringing up all the kiddo references... but couldn't remember who and when. Glad to know who it was though! Could you find your original post and re-post it here, now that it's come up again?
If it was in a previous part of this thread, it was probably Part 3, and probably toward the end....
I remember Locke calling the kid in the toy store "kiddo".. and there certainly have been other "kiddo" comments.. but I know you had many of them listed...
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 06:24 PM
by: fedrich519 (1999 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 13, 2004
cac, the map coordinates tying into all those locations referenced on the island is amazing. I can't believe all the talk of tesseracts and portals and we didn't think to tie it into the polar bear arriving on the island that way until now. The plane arriving there in that way just ties into that.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 06:33 PM
by: fedrich519 (1999 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 13, 2004
cac,I must have forgotten about you talking about the polar bear, pretty sure it wasn't in the tesseract thread or I would have remembered. If you mentioned it in here I might have missed it, I don't always have the opportunity to read every word in here, can't keep up!
ME, not sure we have actually heard Locke quote Nietzsche, Boone said that he does in DEM.....
Locke: It's called a trebuchet, Boone, because it's called a trebuchet.
Boone: I don't get you, man. One minute you're quoting Nietzsche, now all of the sudden you're an engineer. I don't think I can spell trebuchet.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 06:49 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Locke: There's a 't' on the end.
You know, it might mean nothing, but this line really stood out to me. I know it was in reference to Boone saying he didn't even know how to spell trebuchet, but it's not like Locke spelled it out for him... all he said was "there's a 't' on the end". It felt very clue-ish to me.
I was just brainstorming thinking "t on the end".... "t"... then thought of... a "t" on a golf course.
Is this pointing us back to the golf course? IS that where the Black Rock is, and the location of the radio tower/underground antennea?
I also thought that maybe "t on the end" is pointing us to a specific essay of Nietzche 's?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 19 @ 07:33 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Found this in reference to Nietzsche... some of it seems to connect to Lost (not sure if it's coincidence or not), and the mention of the word "troubadour" stood out as it reminds me of the word "trebuchet"... which "ends in a t" (they mean totally different things - so probably a coincidence... but... still reminded me of the other):
In a more well-known aphoristic work, The Gay Science (Die fr?hliche Wissenschaft, 1882) -- whose title was inspired by the troubadour songs of southern-French Provence (1100-1300) -- Nietzsche set forth some of the existential ideas for which he became famous, namely, the proclamation that "God is dead" and the doctrine of "eternal recurrence"-- the idea that one is, or might be, fated to relive forever every moment of one's life, with no omission whatsoever of any pleasurable or painful detail.
Nietzsche's atheism -- his account of "God's murder" (section 125) -- was voiced in reaction to the conception of a single, ultimate, judgmental authority who is privy to everyone's hidden, and personally embarrassing, secrets; his atheism also aimed to redirect people's attention to their inherent freedom, the presently-existing world, and away from all escapist, pain-relieving, heavenly otherworlds.
To a similar end, Nietzsche's doctrine of eternal recurrence (sections 285 and 341) was formulated to draw attention away from all worlds other than the one in which we presently live, since eternal recurrence precludes the possibility of any final escape from the present world. The doctrine also functions as a measure for judging someone's overall psychological strength and mental health, since Nietzsche believed that the doctrine of eternal recurrence was the hardest world-view to accept and
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affirm. In 1887, The Gay Science was reissued with an important preface, an additional fifth Book, and an appendix of songs, reminiscent of the troubadours.fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
From the same source... in reference to Neitzche's Beyond Good and Evil, Prelude to a Philosophy of the Future (Jenseits von Gut und B?se. Vorspiel einer Philosophie der Zukunft, 1886),... ("Zukunft" ends with a 't' )which seems to connect to what we're talking about in relation to John Locke's thoughts on "the greater good":
Above all, Nietzsche believes that living things aim to discharge their strength and express their "will to power" -- a pouring-out of expansive energy which, quite naturally, can entail danger, pain, lies, deception and masks. As he views things from the perspective of life, he further denies that there is a universal morality applicable indiscriminately to all human beings, and instead designates a series of moralities in an order of rank ranging from the noble to the plebeian: some moralities are more appropriate for dominating and leading social roles; some are more suitable for subordinate roles.
So what counts as a preferable and legitimate action depends upon the kind of person one is. The deciding factor is whether one is strong, healthy, powerful and overflowing with ascending life, or whether one is weak, sick and on the decline.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 08:12 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
hey all, looks slow this morning...i was on the having fun thread and these things appear to be important. i know cac, fed and ME were there, but thought the others here might like to take a look...
Ada...Have you noticed all the planes on this island? Toy, big, in between --- Kate's, the survivors, the beechcraft --- They are all about to crash, every last one of them, right on the viewers. Watch out for falling debris!
Dad of 4...My cat tossing pilot cousin and I had a great discussion re beechcraft airplaines.
He owns a 1965 Bonanza and the fuel capacity of our second lost plane just might get you 12 gallons an hour with a capacity of about 6 hours
Ada...Dad, he's right. How many does that plane HOLD?
Fedrich...Plane seats 4 but that plane was configured to hold cargo - Fuel hold is about 6 hours tops
Dad of 4...Plane seats 4 but was confirgured with cargo - Fuel Hold is about 5-6 hours.
Top crusing speed with a tail wind is about 140 to 160 miles per hour.
That plane would have to refuel every 4 or so hours of flight since most fuel consuming part of the flight is take off.
Ada...referring to a guess that maybe Jack's dad has been dead for a lot longer...and maybe he is appearing in Jacks FB's as a ghost...Hi Ginger, snuck back while the Scot's back is turned. Guess what? That is interesting!
Ada...in regards to the words to 'heart and soul'...Hello, there are clues there.
Ada...Fed and Dad, great job.
Cac, you are going to like what is coming up. CRRrreeaaaakkkkk. (regarding the hatch opening???)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 08:21 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
here is another great post from Ada...
Hi everyone!
One more flyby before they turn out my lights. I think I'm looking for a new assistant. No males this time, they are too bossy and too grumpy. I can control the girls. Give them chocolate and Green Day, and they're happy. But the men around here? It's like living with the Seven Dwarves, but all of them are named Grumpy.
Great research, everyone! You've gotten several of them already. At this rate, you'll be done before next week, much less the next show.
Lostintexas and Debsmad, you did it! Great job!
(my insert here...copying what she is referring to)
Lostintexasusa wrote:
I'm looking for the "clue" that Claire gave. Here are some of her lines that seem like they might be the ones that contain the "clue":
"You know I was out there for over a week - days I can't remember. I mean, what if, what if they did something to the baby? I'm not ready for this. I'm not. . . I'm so scared. I'm scared."
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"It's not going to want me."fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
"It knows I don't want it - that I was going to give it away. Babies know that stuff."
Also, regarding Jack and Claire mimicking eachother, I suppose it's that they are both fighting the roles that now have to take on: Claire as a mother and Jack as a leader. They both keeping talking about how "they can't" but they are...
(and here too)
Debsmad wrote...
I mean, what if, what if they did something to the baby?
They. Meaning somewhere in her head she remembers more than just Ethan? Of course Charlie also said "they" and could have maybe told Claire this since she returned. Hmm.
Ada again...
Some asked that I use spoilers in here, so here you go. Now, don't get too excited yet. This week reshoot filming and final loops are being done. Next week, everything starts final editing (last two hours), so the next three days are it. After that, spoilerage may happen in larger amounts. This is just some things to point you toward what you may want to review before the final five hours. Hold your breath, this won't hurt a bit. But don't read if you hate the spoilers.
SPOILER BELOW
Claire is remembering, and like Charlie, some things from that time are coming back. In the next five hours, those memories are going to be a big part of what happens.
And that line, "What if they did something to the baby?" is about to get very chilling. "Ou est mon bebe?"
Fish gotta swim,
Birds gotta fly.
Raft is gonna float,
or someone's doomed to die.
Or are they doomed anyway?
"You can't save them all, Jack."
You know the problem with opening a door? You never know what's waiting on the other side. Watch out, John, the past is back to haunt you.
There's an old Romanish saying "That which takes to the sky is first born of the Earth". Mr. Artz is on his way!
SPOILER ABOVE
And until this week is over, that's as specific as I can get. But next week? Let the fun begin.
Yeah! I can't hardly wait!!! let's discuss...where is everyone?
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:49:49)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 09:44 AM
by: slpy (736 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 23, 2004
Hi Everyone. I just wanted to do a drive by and see how things were in this thread! I cannot keep up so I am just going to drop off this idea maybe you can discuss it. It may lead somewhere...or not!
If the drug Plane left Nigeria and went through a tesseract and landed on the island, from Africa...
Where was Danielles ship originally? Was she in the Artic when she went into the tesseract? Is that why she had a heavy polar type coat? Did she bring the polar bears with her on the ship? We know they are from a ship crash so is this how they got there?
Are there different points to the tessaract? Did the tail section go to one of these other points?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 10:00 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Anni --- I'm here, but I haven't been posting 'cause I don't have anything earthshattering to add to what's been said --- I will offer a few thoughts on some of the recent clues that I haven't seen much discussion on, though...
3-Look at the juxtaposition of Claire and Jack, but not the way that you think. Forget life and death, look at what they are doing and saying. In what way are they mimicing each other?
Claire and Jack on the island both seem to be trying to resist the inevitable, the natural consequences of something that has already happened...
Claire and Jack in the flashbacks both seem to be dealing with "cold feet", fear and self-doubt of new family responsibilities.
5-Blood, blood, all that talk of blood. Bad luck with Boone's blood type, wasn't it?
I kind of skipped over this when I first read the clues because absolutely nothing popped in to my mind when I first read it, then when I went back to read and think about the clues today, I remembered that I had read something (don't know if it was a good source or not) indicating that the person who would die didn't belong there in the first place, so if they couldn't find a match for Boone's blood type, could blood type be a factor in who "belongs" on the island and who doesn't?
I never would have thought about this unless I was trying to get my mind around this clue and I'm not committed to it being the answer, just sharing what's on my mind...
ME --- I've been reading along the past few days, just haven't had much to say, but I wanted to thank you for sharing your e-mail correspondence with your friend (Pine Gap) and ask you a question about something she said:
Will the hatch open? You bet your sweet patootie it opens!
Did you ask her about the hatch in your e-mail to her or did she add that as bonus information? Thanks in advance if this is something you want to respond to...
One final note about the translation of Jack's tattoo --- I got confirmation that "the hawk is the master of the vast sky" is an accurate translation and that it is not an idiomatic phrase.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 10:03 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Slpy ---
I think Danielle told Sayid in "Solitary" that her ship was a few days out of Tahiti when they got caught in the storm that eventually led to the shipwreck...
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:50:13)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 10:53 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Another clue/spoiler I'll comment on...
You know the problem with opening a door? You never know what's waiting on the other side. Watch out, John, the past is back to haunt you.
Locke's father didn't turn out to be what Locke wanted him to be. I'm convinced that the hatch is not going to turn out to be what Locke wants it to be. His misplaced belief in his father led to Locke losing a kidney. Will he feel that his misplaced belief in the island, in the hatch, led to him losing Boone? We saw how devastated Locke was in his car, driving away from Cooper's estate at the end of DEM. Were there even more tragic consequences in the aftermath of the kidney transplant? We don't know yet, but is this how the past could come back to haunt him when the hatch is opened?
Or is there a lot more to it (a past connection between Locke and the hatch)?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 10:59 AM
by: JennyJTZ (87 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 29, 2005
Ada- Fish gotta swim,
Birds gotta fly.
Raft is gonna float,
or someone's doomed to die.
Or are they doomed anyway?
"You can't save them all, Jack."
I keep thinking of this. The sentence, "raft is gonna float, or someone's doomed to die." Does this imply that someone is injured and going to die unless they get off the island for help? Or does it mean that someone on the raft is going to do the killing unless they get off the island? And the part "Or are they doomed anyway" implies that no matter whether the raft floats or not, they will not make it. The last statement is a Christian statement, it makes me think that Jack can't save this person either. What will that do to his psychological state?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:07 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Jenny,
Maybe another possibility for the raft thing is that someone gets on it and heads out to sea --- if it doesn't stay afloat that someone will die in the sea. And if it does stay afloat, what happens when the raft reaches the "invisible boundary" we guess might be out there? Doomed anyway? I don't know, just trying to think it through as I type...
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:12 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
You know the problem with opening a door? You never know what's waiting on the other side. Watch out, John, the past is back to haunt you
hmmm. in lockes not so distant past, he was unable to use his legs. i wonder if when he opens the hatch, the EMF is turned off (to make is safe for the whisperers to come out???)and when it is, he loses his ability to walk again.
hi slpy, by the way...in reading and catching up yesterday i noticed you made an invite to email you...but your go.com addy isn't working...you still up for that? or no?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:29 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Ada...referring to a guess that maybe Jack's dad has been dead for a lot longer...and maybe he is appearing in Jacks FB's as a ghost...Hi Ginger, snuck back while the Scot's back is turned. Guess what? That is interesting!
But if Christian died a lot sooner... before Jack even got married... then how do you account for Sawyer having a conversation with Christian in the bar? And the fact that hotel manager saw him and had him booked into the room... Jack IDing him in Australia, putting the coffin on flight 815?
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:50:47)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:19 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Anni --- I like the idea of the opening of the hatch affecting the EMF and Locke's ability to walk (his past back to haunt him), not so sure about the whisperers coming out, though. Any other ideas why opening the hatch could disrupt the EMF? Anyone?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:36 AM
by: JennyJTZ (87 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 29, 2005
Ada--You know the problem with opening a door? You never know what's waiting on the other side. Watch out, John, the past is back to haunt you.
Locke's dad said "I'll see you on the other side". I wonder what Locke will find down there, and will it have anything to do with that first year of his life when his mother had 'dropped off the face of the earth'.
Ada--There's an old Romanish saying "That which takes to the sky is first born of the Earth". Mr. Artz is on his way! This one...I have no idea. I'm not up to date on the significance of Mr. Artz...can someone give me a link to get caught up? Taking to the sky usually means flying right? Are we going to see another plane, or just more information about the existing planes (Oceanic 815, Kate's toy, and Boone/Locke's plane?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:50 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Did you ask her about the hatch in your e-mail to her or did she add that as bonus information? Thanks in advance if this is something you want to respond to...
chen, she gave that info on her own - i didn't ask.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 11:54 AM
by: JennyJTZ (87 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 29, 2005
chenmeina (hope I spelled that right!), interesting thought about the invisible force/shield in the water. Is this connected to how Joanna died? Did she get too close? Maybe there is something under the water that sucks things down and into the tunnel system under the island?
This just reminded me, where did you all get discussing all the dry river beds and where all the water on the island is? Who is in control of the water, if anyone?
Message was edited by: JennyJTZ to correct horrible grammar and spelling...I'm sure I didn't get it all either.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 12:53 PM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Jenny --- The idea of a "shield" wasn't my own original thinking --- it was discussed in conjunction with the electromagnetic field idea in previous Episode Titles threads --- I don't really have a firm opinion on whether that's what got Joanna or not
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 02:19 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Anni, I think the important part about the plane holding 4 people is that there were 2 people on the island who arrived on the plane. I say 'were' becasue I think one is the dead Ethan and the other is his twin, the living-threat-to-Claire's-baby Ethan. The might just be one Ethan and one Mrs. Artz too.
"Babies know that stuff" might be the clue. Maybe this baby is special in that it knows more than a blank slate should.
Slpy, in the Key to Black Rock thread, Ada said that Rousseau's coat was a clue to his occupation. Anyone figure that one out yet? Her spoilers from that thread are toward the bottom of the second post in this thread, btw.
The tail section could have gone elsewhere.
Chen:I had read something (don't know if it was a good source or not) indicating that the person who would die didn't belong there in the first place, so if they couldn't find a match for Boone's blood type, could blood type be a factor in who "belongs" on the island and who doesn't?
I think the source was Ada. I don't know. Most of them don't know their blood type and Charlie read out a selection. Blood keeps coming up and I have very few ideas so far about what it means.
His misplaced belief in his father led to Locke losing a kidney. Will he feel that his misplaced belief in the island, in the hatch, led to him losing Boone?
ME:But if Christian died a lot sooner... before Jack even got married... then how do you account for Sawyer having a conversation with Christian in the bar? And the fact that hotel manager saw him and had him booked into the room... Jack IDing him in Australia, putting the coffin on flight 815?
I'm also having trouble moving the death back in the timeline.
Chen:Any other ideas why opening the hatch could disrupt the EMF? The hatch might be the source of the EMF.
Jenny, try searching my name with Artz. It means Earth in Hebrew.
I agree that the shield drowned Joanna because she swam too close to it.
The dry river beds was also discussed in a previous incarnation of this thread. Furphy built on some of Ada's clues and helped me guess that the water used to be much higher and has been diverted.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 06:14 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
davis, it seems the verdict is still out on how many people were in the beachnut (small plane). Fed and Dad_of_4 (I think) said it can hold 4 passengers, but that plane that Boone found was fitted for cargo, which seemed to imply maybe it held less than 4, since it was also carrying cargo (drugs). So, we know there was a dead priest and pilot from that plane... so MAYBE one or two other passengers, or maybe not... since it was carrying cargo.
And what on EARTH is this thread doing on page 4?
Oh, and I have to say... I'm realizing more and more that Sawyer is growing to be one of my favorite characters. There's something about him I really like - his humor, for one.... and even when he's being a dufus, he's just funny. I also think there's a real soft spot in him, and I also think he has a lot of pain in him that he masks with that tough guy, I don't give a rat's behind bravado.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 20 @ 09:26 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
"it'll come back around."
It sounds like Frank is saying that Sawyer will be killed, but the show is about redemption. Maybe Sawyer needs to SAVE a life to make up for taking one.
I think he's going to save someone from drowning when the raft sinks, probably Walt.
Maybe this has something to do with what Ada posted today:
Yet each man kills the thing he loves
By each let this be heard,
Some do it with a bitter look,
Some with a flattering word,
The coward does it with a kiss,
The brave man with a sword!
Some kill their love when they are young,
And some when they are old;
Some strangle with the hands of Lust,
Some with the hands of Gold:
The kindest use a knife, because
The dead so soon grow cold.
Some love too little, some too long,
Some sell, and others buy;
Some do the deed with many tears,
And some without a sigh:
For each man kills the thing he loves,
Yet each man does not die.
This island is about to fall apart.
"Ballad of Reading Gaol" by Oscar Wilde. The moral is important to the overall island mystery.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:52:26)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 04:02 AM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
ME, Oh, and I have to say... I'm realizing more and more that Sawyer is growing to be one of my favorite characters.
I agree, he is the way he is because of what happened to him as a little boy. Deep inside is a scare little boy who is still trapped under a bed with no mother to protect him.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 06:03 AM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
The whisperers said "It'll come back around." The same thing that Frank Dukette says after Sawyer shoots him. I'm not sure that the whisperers are even real. Could it be the conscience of whoever hears them? What did the whisperers say when Sayid heard them?
Also, Jack has a tattoo on the inside of his right arm. Has this been discussed before?
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 09:28 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
I am bringing this over from the 'having fun' thread...
Bookworm says...
After listening to my sis go on and on about the black monolith in "2001" (and realizing that it does link to Nietzsche in a roundabout way), I've had the movie running around in my head all day. I think the song Jack plays might be from this movie, although it's not the "black monolith" theme. Toward the end, when the computer (HAL) goes nuts and Dave (who has narrowly escaped being killed) has to pull out pieces of it's "brain," the computer's mental disintegration is shown by it singing "Bicycle Built for Two." The rhythm fits Jack's piano solo, and the few notes seem to me to fit, too. There's no clue I can see in the title, though--unless it means their marriage is built for two, so there's no room for a third, i.e., no baby allowed. The lyrics also contain a few possible matchups:
Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer, do.
I'm half crazy[/b, all for the love of you.
It won't be a stylish marriage.
I can't afford a carriage.
But you'll look sweet upon the seat
Of a bicycle built for two.
So maybe a miscarriage or loss of a child made Jack crazy? And broke up the marriage? Kind of a stretch, I know. . .
Ada repied...
Bookworm, I love the way your brain works. That was a thing of beauty.
But it wasn't a miscarriage. Keep going though, because that was great
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 09:30 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
here were some of my thoughts that i posted on the 'having fun' thread as well...
brought it to you all because, well...you guys are family! and i'm loyal to you all!
ok...here we go.
i keep thinking about the post from bookworm and ada's response. i started to seach 'bicycle built for two' and found somehting that is intersting...
first, ada says that it is the title that is the clue, not the words. so i started to research the history of the song. here is some info:
it was first composed in 1862 as 'Daisy Bell' by Harry Dacre. in 1961, Max Matthews redid it as 'Bicycle Built for Two'.
it is Matthews that has caught my attention. he was an engineer... "He worked in acoustic research at AT&T Bell Laboratories from 1955 to 1987... This laboratory carried out research in speech communication, visual communication, human memory and learning, programmed instruction, analysis of subjective opinions, physical acoustics, and industrial robotics."
"... He created the first computer singing, "Bicycle Built for Two," made famous by the Kubrick movie 2001 as the swan song of the dying computer."
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:52:51)
The science behind his discoveries is "The Second Law" which states IN PART:fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
..."Whenever an energy distribution is out of equilibrium a potential or thermodynamic "force" exists that the world acts spontaneously to dissipate or minimize..."
..."The second law has inspired many 'entropic visions' in the last century, which is not too surprising? two devastating world wars, the invention of nuclear warfare" (ties into Einstein and Tesla)
here is a link the site w/more info
http://sfsound.org/tape/Mathews.html
ok...so all of that science mumbo jumbo doesn't make a ton of sense to me, but in reading about how this actually works, this is what sticks out to me...
"The noise is used with a variety of bandwidths (the frequency limits of a given sound pattern) to achieve effects ranging from noise of definite pitch to pitchless noise."
this reminds me of the EMF waves. we know that the wavy lines in the diary and the clues about them from ada...it's been mentioned that maybe they aren't WATER waves, but the electromagnetic waves from the antennae/tower? these waves could be making a high pitch sound that is what kept taking Vincent away.
Also, Locke said to Boone, "can you feel it"? and we believe that Locke is more intune to the EMF because of the TENS machine he's been using.
In our research of Montauk, we found that some of what they were trying to do was to find a way to connect humans and computers. Kind of like what was done in 2001 with Hal...and 'Bicycle Built for Two'.
so, i don't know if this is too far to stretch? but so many of the things...from the dates to the technology, to the outcome...
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:53:22)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 09:41 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
well, well, well....
looks like some of us have so SERIOUS re-thinking to do!!!
SPOILER*******
Born to Run - synopsis:
Michael becomes violently ill while building the raft, and Jack suspects foul play; a secret from Kate's past is revealed, and Walt gives Locke a warning.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 09:50 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
this is true, davis.
ada told us that we've been shown hints in the last 3 episodes...
what about Jin? he's a fisherman...and we've seen micheal eating fish (as well as sawyer, and walt too), but not Jin...he was working while they were eating...
or sun? with her knowledge of the herbs and stuff, she certainly is qualified to know what would be poisonous and what wouldn't...maybe she is angry at micheal for rebuffing her and now she is alone with neither Jin or Micheal.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:53:43)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 11:15 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Ada replied...
Bookworm, I love the way your brain works. That was a thing of beauty.
But it wasn't a miscarriage. Keep going though, because that was great
Bookworm was saying that maybe there was room for two in Jack and Sarah's marriage, but no room for children. I don't know if that is what Ada was affirming or not, but if so and since it wasn't a miscarriage, it could have been an abortion.
Personally, I think I'm partial to the "pregnant Sarah died tragically/Jack couldn't save her or the baby" idea.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 11:21 AM
by: annipadanni (169 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 17, 2005
good thinking chen. i hadn't thought of that. i've been focusing on the aspect of a 'wanted' child that was tragically killed...but if this baby was only wanted by jack...it would almost be a double whammy to lose the baby and it be sarah's fault...
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 11:42 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Like I said, I like the idea of pregnant Sarah falling overboard and being lost at sea... I think it fits with the Heart and Soul lyrics and, to me, it adds something to the scene of Jack in the airport needing to take his father's body home to bury it if he lost Sarah and never found her body...
Just throwing the abortion idea out there as a possibility, and on that, I agree with you, Anni, that Jack would have wanted the baby. An abortion would have been Sarah's initiative...
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 11:49 AM
by: SheilaSwan (236 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2004
Yes, chen. I'm on board (or overboard ) with this. When it airs, we'll either be doing the "I told you so" dance or wondering how we could be so far off track.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 12:25 PM
by: OneisLost (201 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 21, 2004
Have been reading the book Mount Doom by Douglas Preston/Lincoln Child (execellent authors! highly recommend). Mt. Doom is about altering genes and using viruses as a way to introduce them into the body. In the book, they are using a flu virus and having some pretty nasty results.
Thought this might tie into LOST and the whisperers, Danielle, etc. and did a little research to see if this is indeed one way scientist use to introduce altered DNA. It is.
http://www.ich.ucl.ac.uk/cmgs/genether.htm
If this was being done at one time on the island, especially in the early days of this type of research, there could have been some really nasty results. If Danielle was participating in the experiments, I can certainly understand why she would have to shoot everyone and probably burn the bodies in hopes of killing the virus/altered genes.
On another site I glanced through some paragraphs that said scientist often use electro/electromagnetic therapy to "soften" the cells in the new host to prepare them to accept the virus/altered genes. Pretty interesting.
Has Michael been "softened" up enough maybe? Has he contracted the virus? Maybe Danielle didn't kill it all. These things tend to take on a life of their own and are very adept at morphing to acclimate to a host.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:54:06)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 12:34 PM
by: OneisLost (201 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Nov 21, 2004
Okay, I'll take this scenerio into the realm of soap opera.Sarah had an abortion and didn't tell Jack until afterwards. They split. They reunite and decide to take a cruise to start over, second honeymoon. Sarah falls overboard or gets eaten by a shark, etc. Double whammy for Jack and explains the "bury someone remark". Would also account for his wanted to get home and "finish" this whole episode of his life.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 01:25 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Personally, I think I'm partial to the "pregnant Sarah died tragically/Jack couldn't save her or the baby" idea.
This idea has been tossed around for quite a while now, and I'm much more partial than this than the abortion idea.
I personally don't think the "fell overboard" is going to be so literal... unless it's about intentionally jumping overboard (i.e. suicide). I posted this theory on the song thread a while ago and received favorable response... I'll try to find it and post here.
Consider another possibility as well - post-partum depression. Perhaps she committed suicide while pregnant, or after the child was born, while child was with her (therefore, killing the child as well).
Here's what I posted on the title's thread April 12:
This is what stood out to me:
Heart and soul, I begged to be adored
Lost control, and tumbled overboard,
gladly
I wonder if it's indication that maybe Sarah committed suicide? If Jack married her more because she was his patient... his masterpiece... and his committment was so deep... and loved her for alll of that, but wasn't "in love" with her. What happens when the next critical patient comes along that he goes over the top to save, and he committs to?
My thought is that maybe he didn't give Sarah enough attention - he didn't show her the type of attention he would if he was truly in love with her and committed to her as a true love... a soul mate. Instead, he's married to his work... to his patients.
So, Sarah "begs to be adored"... eventutally "Lost control and tumbled overboard" (committed suicide)
"gladly" (willingly.. died willingly... again, suicide).
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 01:42 PM
by: meredg (1090 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 01, 2005
We were in the Panda sandbox thread, and she was looking for a good discussion. I thought she said that she was headed to the Titles thread and to meet her there. Now she is MIA!
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 01:53 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Hmmmmmmmmm... hope she stops by. We miss her here! Could use a fresh up. Maybe she's still reading here - getting caught up on the posts she hasn't read yet.
he events that landed Sayid on Flight 815 play out as he engages Locke in a psychological game of cat and mouse to uncover the truth about the mishap that claimed Boone. Meanwhile, Kate struggles to keep Jack from acting on his rage, as Shannon also makes plans for her brother's alleged killer; and Sawyer proves to be the best thing for Claire's very unhappy baby. Source: TitanTV
Exodus Part 1
The French woman -- Rousseau -- shocks the survivors by showing up with a dire warning about "the others." Meanwhile, Michael and Jin ready the raft for sailing. Source: ABC
Exodus Parts 2/3
The castaways on the raft are surprised at sea by something unexpected. Meanwhile, remaining islanders attempt to blow open the hatch, and a visitor to the encampment might be a threat to Claire's infant son. Source: ABC
I agree from the earlier spoiler that Walt is poisioning Michael. He showed his proclivity for wrongdoing by burning down the raft, something that was dangerous and potentially life-threatening (Jin did burn his hands), so poisioning isn't a far stretch from arson when you think about how Walt feels about wanting to stay on the island.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 02:11 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
If Walt's poisoning Michael, how is he doing it? Has he found some leaves that he's slipping into Dad's salads or is he sending bad thoughts his way? We discussed this a little while ago, albeit about Sawyer, and speculated that he might have accidentally killed his mother the same way.
Has Michael shown any symptoms yet? Susan seemed to have a headache and felt "fluy."
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 02:26 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
anni: or sun? with her knowledge of the herbs and stuff, she certainly is qualified to know what would be poisonous and what wouldn't...maybe she is angry at micheal for rebuffing her and now she is alone with neither Jin or Micheal.
I speculated a while ago that it might be Sun... and then we all talked about how she might not be what she seems... and how she was evesdropping on Kate and Jack when they thought she didn't know English (I think you reminded us all of that, anni). I'm not sure who she is poisoning though - motive.
Jack and Kate were cleaning fish in "In Translation"... one of them could have been poisoning them... though I doubt Jack is doing it. I think it could be Jin, who would know poisonous fish.
Or what about Claire? Could she be doing it? Could the "others" have "programmed" her to poison one of them when prompted - might have even told her how to do it - maybe Michael since he's building the raft? She didn't want any fish when offered, and inquired as to when it would be done. Or, she could be doing it on her own to get her and her child off the island.
Just tossing out ideas here... but no one would suspect Claire... just as no one would suspect Sun.
I definitley don't think Walt is the one poisoning anyone, especially not his father.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:54:55)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 04:21 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Adawhen:The question, Cac, is how was he poisoned!
Then the conversation turned to Heart and Soul.
Furphy: Means Jack is a loon. ... No, you aren't getting my drift. It means Jack is a loon. Heart and soul I fell in love with you heart and soul the way a kid would do madly, see then? ... One must wonder really if there was a wife. ... Truth told, they haven't told us that bit yet, but none of us is sure how sane Jack is in the end.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 05:11 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
ME, help me out please. I know you have a strong theory about the whisperers but I don't understand from last nights show why they would say said "It'll come back around." That's same thing that Frank Dukette said to Sawyer after he shot him. Could the whisperers be Sawyer's conscience? The whole show was about him making a mistake and shooting the wrong man. He learnt from it though, he didn't shoot the boar. What did the whisperers say when Sayid heard them? I don't have that epi on tape. Could someone who recorded it, see if you can make out what they are saying?
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 05:20 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
davis, the whispers are transcribed... Ada's students did so by using audio equipement and such. you might find it if you do a Google search for something like Lost whisper transcripts.
Most theorists who have theorized about the whispers feel that the "It'll come back around" phrase was placed among the whispers from Sawyer's memory and conscience.. not actually said by the whisperers. Sawyer, nor Sayid, could make out what the whisperers were saying, at least not that we know of - except for that line Sawyer heard. So, while the whisperers were actually having a conversation amongst themselves, which came across to Sawyer and Sayid as jumbled whispers, his memory/conscience was splicing in the "It'll come back around" phrase... such as we might hear a tree creaking as a person screaming, if we had that in our memory bank somewhere.
That's the theory, anyway.
I agree from the earlier spoiler that Walt is poisioning Michael. He showed his proclivity for wrongdoing by burning down the raft, something that was dangerous and potentially life-threatening (Jin did burn his hands), so poisioning isn't a far stretch from arson when you think about how Walt feels about wanting to stay on the island.
I disagree here, fed. I think what you say here is the right hand waving. Need to keep track of what that sneaky, not-as-obvious left hand is doing.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 05:24 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Davis, the Whispers come from two sources. The first part comes from the Whisperers, possibly telepathically. The last line is added by Sawyer in Frank's voice, so it is his conscience. Sayid's Whisperers said similar things and his last line was in Arabic (I think) so we don't know what it said.
Sayid told Sawyer that he was exhausted when he heard them. Sawyer was too, since it was the middle of the night. Maybe that makes them more susceptible.
Ada posted a transcript for us once. ME might have a link at the beginning of the Second Episode Titles thread. There are several voices. They are afraid of something and not sure whether they can trust these new arrivals.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:55:19)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 05:30 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Time to post my latest thoughts on the Sides:
Locke
Claire
Charlie
Jack
Sayid
Shannon
Okay, that's all I've got. Somebody else assign the rest.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 05:46 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
Another observation from last night. When Hurley and Charlie were burying Ethan, Hurley said that he might rise from the dead and come after them. With the suggestion from Ada that 'people don't stay dead on the island' or words to that effect, this comment really stood out for me.
Also, Locke said that when the dog came to his house and his foster mum thought that it was her daughter. "It let her off the hook" about feeling guilty. That's the same thing that Boone said to Jack. "I let you off the hook."
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:55:44)
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 07:30 PM
by: sdogTSOL (308 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 09, 2005
Oscar Wilde
Wilde was imprisoned for homosexual acts in 1895
The two-year imprisonment left the incredibly gifted and witty Wilde a broken man, bankrupt and ill. He left England for France where he remained until his death in 1900 at the age of 46. It was there that he wrote perhaps his most famous work, The Ballad of Reading Gaol. The poem, written as a memorial to C.T.W., who died in prison while Wilde was there, tells the emotions of an imprisoned man towards a fellow inmate who is to be hanged. (for killing his wife by slitting her throat) This ballad has brought to the language the words: "For each man kills the thing he loves..." and reveals the insights of a man once the toast of England and America for his writing and witticisms brought through a crucible of humiliation and degradation. It is a beautiful poem; its cadences and imagery mesmerizing, its story a tragedy of the human condition, but also of the truths we must live by. Its message, even so, is one of hope and reconciliation.
eventually winning a scholarship to Magdalene College in Oxford which he entered in 1875.
It is while at Oxford that he is rumored to have contracted syphilis after a night with a female prostitute. Friends also tell of an incident in the college chapel with the visiting Prince Leopold of Belgium and his accompaniment of Mrs. Liddel and her daughter Alice (the Alice of Carroll's Alice in Wonderland) in attendance.
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Posted: Apr 21 @ 08:48 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Did anyone see the Muppet Wizard of Oz promo during Lost last night... and they (the Muppets, as the lion and tin man, etc) were realizing they were.... LOST?
Muppet movies are known for basically giving "nods" to other movies and shows... so since it's an Disney presentation, airing ABC... and they're promoting it during Lost (and here)... I imagine they'll have some Lost references and nods. Anyway, just wanted to mention it. Would be funny to see what they do...
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 06:47 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
OK, another thought rolling around in my head, pure speculation:
Ada said, There's an old Romanish saying "That which takes to the sky is first born of the Earth". Mr. Artz is on his way!
Artz = Earth, so maybe "born of" means "created by" and "that which takes to the sky" could be airplanes, etc. Could Mr. Artz be an airplane builder/ designer/ engineer? Do we know from clues/spoilers if he was on the island before the crash or if he was on the plane? (he could be one of the emerging "background" characters, no?) I can't remember what we've been told about him to date...
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 06:56 AM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I think that Mr. Artz is one of the Others, perhaps their leader, but the spoilers don't say much about him. I think I formed this impression when we were discussing the meaning of his name.
When we were more actively looking for the mystery song, I considered Somewhere Over the Rainbow because of the similarities between Lost and The Wizard of Oz. That would be cute if the Muppets have some Lost references.
I've been thinking about Claire's dream, the one of Ethan sticking a needle in the baby. I know she was adamant about it being real, but Jack found no evidence of that, so what if it wasn't? What if it was another prophecy about her baby being in danger?
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 09:20 AM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Cac --- I agree that the "needle" thing was also a prophetic dream for Claire. I would guess that the stuff from her diary about the Black Rock was from prophetic dreams, too. The in-depth dream we saw (with Locke and the toddler) hasn't come to be reality yet, but I wonder about the other ones. When she was abducted, was she at the Black Rock and couldn't get away? Did "they" stick a needle into her/the baby before she got away? Too creepy!!
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:56:14)
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 01:12 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Artz = Earth, so maybe "born of" means "created by" and "that which takes to the sky" could be airplanes, etc. Could Mr. Artz be an airplane builder/ designer/ engineer?
Do we know what happened to the co-pilot of Oceanic flight 815? Were they both pilots in the cockpit when they found it - one dead, and one alive... or was there only the one? Thinking of...
Ada: There's an old Romanish saying "That which takes to the sky is first born of the Earth". Mr. Artz is on his way!
... does say "pilot" to me... or plane manufacturer. Interestly, when I was researching info on Echelon, I found info about the manufacturers of the satellites involved, and they were made by same companies that manufature airplanes and other (Bowing, Lockheed Martin).
As far as Claire's encounter with whomever she thought was attacking her and trying to inject her with a needle - I always thought it was quite peculiar that she could see what she thought was a needle, but couldn't make out the person's face, even though he was inches away from her. That does say "dream" to me - premonition... and if it was a premonition, and not real, then poor Jack's guilt for not believing her was misplaced... though... I guess in most cases it wouldn't hurt to listen to a pregnant woman's premonitions or intuitions, etc.
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 02:08 PM
by: chenmeina (168 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 08, 2005
Extremely slow!
Furphy: Means Jack is a loon. ... No, you aren't getting my drift. It means Jack is a loon. Heart and soul I fell in love with you heart and soul the way a kid would do madly, see then? ... One must wonder really if there was a wife. ... Truth told, they haven't told us that bit yet, but none of us is sure how sane Jack is in the end.
What does this mean? It sounds like "Heart and Soul" is supposed to indicate that Jack is head over heels in love with Sarah. Maybe I have to re-watch in that light, 'cause it seemed like he was soooo uncertain about getting married.
But, let's run with this: he's madly in love with her, is she marrying him 'cause she feels she owes it to him for fixing her, not 'cause she loves him? Maybe he senses this and that's why he seems to have "cold feet"...
Did they not go through with the rest of the wedding?
Was she involved with another man? (I'm thinking about the lyrics to a song in the thread about what Jack was playing on the piano, I think).
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 03:32 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
ME, the copilot's body fell out of the cockpit when Jack opened the door.
Mr. Artz could have been the pilot of the drug plane, however.
Chen, I think F meant that Jack fell in love with Sarah too quickly. He probably proposed without thinking it through, hence his cold feet.
What I'd like to know is what was wrong with Jack that Sarah fixed? His father said that his problem was with letting go, but Jack committed himself to her, so that wasn't fixed. What was?
I'm also wondering if Jack contracts the illness. That would raise questions about his sanity. All Danielle said was that her team came down with it suddenly on their way back from the Back Rock.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 03:36 PM
by: I_Love_Lost_Too (34 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 06, 2005
I think "Heart and Soul" has a greater meaning for all of the survivors...not just for Jack and Sara. (I am pretty sure Ada alluded to something like that) Maybe they all fell overboard for someone (or something):
Jack - fell overboard for Sara
Sawyer - fell overboard to find the original Sawyer
Charlie - fell overboard for drugs
Locke - fell overboard for his new-found Dad
Boone - fell overboard for Shannon
Shannon - fell overboard for being rescued
Sayid - fell overboard for the prisoner of his (whose name I do not recall)
Kate - fell overboard for husband, maybe?
Sun - fell overboad for Jin
Jin - fell overboard for Sun's dad (in an obligation sense)
Hurley - fell overboard with greed? (big maybe! - don't yell at me Hurley lovers!)
Any ideas? I know some of them are stretching it, but maybe you can come up with a better example!
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:56:39)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 07:41 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
New spoilers from an interview with Javier Grillo-Marxuach:
Do you think that this particular group of survivors on Lost got really lucky with their own doctor, engineer and golf course designer? They've got a bank robber and an expert botanist, an expert tracker-hunter. The average plane probably has a lot of office workers taking a much-needed vacation -- how would that affect the show differently?
(laughs) It's interesting because we have a character, Dr. Artz, who is coming into the last two episodes of the season, played by Daniel Roebuck -- he's a pompous high school teacher and he's the kind of guy that you would get stuck on an airplane with. He talks about the other survivors and how they feel about Jack and Kate -- he's got a speech that I like to call the "Red Shirts Lament." It's all about what it's like to be in the chorus and not in the merry band of adventurers. We've got 48 survivors originally -- at the rate we're killing people, I don't know what we're down to -- and I think that in the backstory of [one of the guy's] who died, he was an office worker, and the woman who swam out into the sea and died had some sort of mundane job. Personally, if I were stuck on some deserted island, I'd probably prefer to be stuck with a bunch of geeks. Because while we died, we'd talk about comic books and crap like that -- it'd just be more fun than to actually put any effort into survival. We'd also talk about what it'd be like if we had a play station, what video formats we like and why laser discs are better than DVDs, and then we'd die, but we'd die happy. But it wouldn't make for great television, would it?
...
Speaking of Locke, there has been a lot of fan discussion on what side of the moral fence he falls -- is he supposed to be good or evil?
When we [went to] the Paley Festival, [Lost's Executive Producer] Carlton Cuse asked for a show of hands of who thought Locke was good and who thought Locke was evil and it was interesting because almost as many people thought good as thought evil. And I think he's a polarizing character that way and frankly, I'll tell you up front, I'm not going to tell you if he's good or evil. Locke is a character who began -- we had a very specific story we wanted to tell with him and Terry [O'Quinn] brought a lot to the character and then we really started falling in love with the character and he's gotten more and more complicated and more and more... nutty.
Alright, I need to ask: did ANYTHING good EVER happen in his life?
Here's the thing: probably. Do you really want to watch an episode with Locke and some puppies in a field of pumpkins frolicking all hour? It doesn't sound very dramatic.
Not for the whole hour, but I'd really like for him to have a puppy that was nice to him.
That's what's great about Locke, whether he turns out to be good or evil, he's gonna be somebody who overcame all this crap that life threw at him. I think that's why people like the character because he's resourceful; he's all these things. And what's happening with him on the island is interesting because the island turned him into the man he always wished he were -- some kind of combination of his real father, but better. It will be very interesting to see what the island does to Locke. He's more about -- not so much good or evil -- but when a man who's been repressed his whole life all of a sudden gets freed, and he has taken it in a very strange way. Not that he's reveling in it, but that he's positioning something that he thinks is his destiny. At this point Locke is not beyond good and evil, but it's more of a question of, like any good character, he certainly believes that he's doing good and the audience will have to wind up ultimately deciding if he's evil or not.
A lot of fans, myself included, seem to be getting a bit restless with the lack of resolution of any storylines. The addition of more storylines on a weekly basis doesn't help. While I don't believe my impatience should ever force a storyteller to speed up their well-planned, albeit slow progress, how important do you think it is to throw your audience a bit of a bone? And, say, finish at least one storyline?
We are rapidly careening towards a season finale, so there will be things that will be explained. The show has taken place over less than five weeks, between the plane crash and now. People got really upset that we spent two episodes not addressing Claire's kidnapping, but the fact was those episodes were 48 hours, and during those episodes other stuff was going on around the island. Jack and Kate got the crap beat out of them [when they were] looking for Ethan, so it's not like they were going to go back out the next day. I understand why people got upset with it because there's a big time lag [between episodes], but when you look at it in the context of the real timing of what's going on in the series, it wasn't like they were sitting around for weeks not caring about Claire. It was just 48 or 72 hours passed, and there was nothing that they could do at the time.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:57:03)
There's a couple of mysteries that are going to clear up and those will open new questions. The season finale has a really amazing cliffhanger. fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
We're by no means wrapping up the mystery of the island, but you will get significant hints about what things are, and some things we're going to close out all together. After the end of the season, you're not going to wonder what they are anymore.
Can you give us a hint?
In addition to the greater mystery of the island, there are a lot of tiny dangling questions out there. What is the black rock? What does the French Lady do for food? What is the deal with Kate's little toy DC-3 airplane? Is the monster a carnivore or an herbivore? How does Jack keep his stubble so even? Those and about a million others -- we'd be really stingy not to start shedding some light on the many questions we've raised, but at the same time it's our responsibility to build the show to a place where the revelation of those puzzle pieces serves as a dramatic climax.
We're not going to keep stringing the audience along -- but at the same time, 45 days on the island, the castaways are just not going to find everything out.
If I told you what the island was now, you would probably never watch the show again. Not because it would disappoint you, but because you would know. It's like Dave and Maddie having sex -- after they do that, it's not Moonlighting anymore, it's some other thing. Once you find out what the island is, it becomes a different show. So those mysteries we keep close to our vest, but for the other character things we try to slowly dollop it out in a way that's satisfying and the audience doesn't feel led on.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 22 @ 07:52 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I_Love, it could also mean that everyone has done something impulsive that they later regretted.
Dr. Artz, who is coming into the last two episodes of the season, played by Daniel Roebuck -- he's a pompous high school teacher and he's the kind of guy that you would get stuck on an airplane with. He talks about the other survivors and how they feel about Jack and Kate -- he's got a speech that I like to call the "Red Shirts Lament." It's all about what it's like to be in the chorus and not in the merry band of adventurers.
This makes it sound like Dr. Artz was one of the passengers on the plane. Until now, I was thinking that he was already on the island from one of the earlier crashes.
Do you think it's important that he's Dr. Artz? Not many high school teachers are THAT well educated.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 09:30 AM
by: I_Love_Lost_Too (34 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Apr 06, 2005
"How does Jack keep his stubble so even?"
I laughed when I saw this! If I recall correctly, didn't they start showing Jack with a razor and a mirror after there were talks here about the status of his beard!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 11:21 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Do you think it's important that he's Dr. Artz? Not many high school teachers are THAT well educated.
There's a handful... will be interesting to hear what he teaches. Science, perhaps... shall we dare guess?
Perhaps he was a former scientist, working for, say... the government... maybe some top secret experiements. And... oh... maybe... had a nervous breakdown from the job... and had now resorted to teaching high school?
What's that stupid saying: "Those that can, do... those that can't, teach?"
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 12:59 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
If I told you what the island was now, you would probably never watch the show again. Not because it would disappoint you, but because you would know. Once you find out what the island is, it becomes a different show.
Thanks cac for posting the interview. Very interesting read. And once again it says, "If I told you what the island was." What could it possibly be, other than an island? I want to know, but I don't want them to tell us. Half of the fun of the show is all the research. Can't wait for the new epis.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:57:31)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 01:36 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Uh, ok... please don't tell me anyone here is foolish enough to click on a link posted by someone with the name "i-spam", and a URL with the domain "musicpromotions.com".
This is not a marketing thread. Please don't post spam here.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 01:38 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
davis: Very interesting read. And once again it says, "If I told you what the island was." What could it possibly be, other than an island? I want to know, but I don't want them to tell us. Half of the fun of the show is all the research. Can't wait for the new epis.
They could be referring to something like it being a former "top secret" government or military research facility and/or Echelon listening post.
They might also be referring to it being partially man-made, maybe?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 02:44 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
Maybe I'm over analyzing but I get the impression from his use of words, "If I told you what the island was now, you would probably never watch the show again," that it implies that it is something other than an island. If it was originally used as top secret government or military research facility and/or Echelon listening post but isn't anymore, wouldn't he have said: "If I told you what the island used to be"? But he didn't say that, he said: "If I told you what the island was now." Meaning that it is something other than an island, even now. I know it's probably just paranoia on my part but I'm sure it means something. ME, I like the idea that it could be man-made.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 02:47 PM
by: fedrich519 (1999 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Oct 13, 2004
OK, sorry...totally jumping in out of nowhere and completely changing the subject...
Sitting here watching Hearts and Minds and I caught something that I'm not sure I remember noticing the first time.
Locke and Boone are walking from the hatch discussing telling the other castaways about the hatch and Boone brings up Shannon. Locke asks why he is so concerned with her.
Boone replied
"Hey, you don't know her. She's smart and *special* in a lot of ways."
Probably already picked over before, but the special thing caught my ear. A lot of our castaways have been refered to as "special". I remember all the other ones mentioned, not sure if I remember Shannon in this category. If we already went over this, move on and forget I was here.
Can't wait for Mr. Artz. Love the interview. I still find it odd that all of the other castaways are called by their first names with the exception of Locke, but he goes by "John" or "Locke", not Mr. Locke. Why is he called "Mr. Artz", why not just "Artz"?
Why don't we know Mr. Artz's first name? I know he is a teacher and is used to it, but do the other castaways call him "Mister"? Seems odd, maybe they are just hiding his first name from us because it is a huge clue to be revealed later.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 03:14 PM
by: SheilaSwan (236 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2004
Good thoughts, everyone! Actually, I'm probably just a dork, but I've always thought the island was more than just a hunk of land. I've thought there was a real manmade sense to it.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:57:54)
We just found out that the number 44 hint is not a death count. But it is definitely a hint for something. So besides the obvious thing that it could allude to 44 days they'll be on the island by the end of the season (and I really haven't calculated that, but it feels about right), here are some other 44's. Probably all waaaaaay off base.fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
Alcoholics Anonymous has a major book titled "44 Questions."
M44 is a star cluster in the constellation Cancer. It's also known as the beehive Cluster.
44% - Pres Bush's latest approval rating
Division 44 - American Phycological society study of Lesbian, transexual, etc psychology and support
The Federalist Paper #44 - says that states cannot enter into treaties, alliances or confederations alone (actually we could fit this into the Lost mythology quite well!)
The 44th shuttle mission was for a secret defense task
Probably all rot, but that's never stopped me before...
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 03:37 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Maybe I'm over analyzing but I get the impression from his use of words, "If I told you what the island was now, you would probably never watch the show again," that it implies that it is something other than an island. If it was originally used as top secret government or military research facility and/or Echelon listening post but isn't anymore, wouldn't he have said: "If I told you what the island used to be"? But he didn't say that, he said: "If I told you what the island was now." Meaning that it is something other than an island, even now.
davis, it might be a matter of semantics, but I think you're actually proving my point. The quote is, as you yourself indicated, "If I told you what the island was now..." What the island WAS. He didn't say "If I told you what the island IS now..." So, if you're going strickly by the quote, he's referring to what the island WAS... used to be.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 03:47 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Probably already picked over before, but the special thing caught my ear. A lot of our castaways have been refered to as "special". I remember all the other ones mentioned, not sure if I remember Shannon in this category. If we already went over this, move on and forget I was here.
Fed, I'm pretty sure we did pick up on this, discussed it, and we added Shannon to our "special" list. However, the way Boone said that.. the way he referred to her as "special, in many ways", stood out to me as well, and I always thought that many people dismissed this as simply referring to his attraction to her. However, I think there's a lot more there than meets the eye - in regard to how Shannon is specialy. Boone knew of it, and saw it.... but the question is, what did he know and see, as far as how she is special? I'd love to know!
Sheila, you aren't a dork, for goodness sake! All good stuff.
I've always had the "man made island" possibility in my mind as well, though at times feel that it might be a combo... part exisiting, part man-made (if that's even possible). It also seems like it might be a dormant volcano, or that at least one exists on the island (which is where I think the Black Rock is... the area on the map that looks like the creater of a dormant volcano).
Oh, and I had read that post (from Ada, I think) that the 44 on Sara's shirt IS a significant, but as an indication of the numbber of survivors by the end of the season. I meant to post that here yesterday, but forgot, so I'm VERY glad you did! I also appreciate all the other 44 references. Good work!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 04:09 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
ME, "If I told you what the island was now..." What the island WAS. He didn't say "If I told you what the island IS now..." So, if you're going strickly by the quote, he's referring to what the island WAS... used to be.
That's what I thought the first time I read it, but he says, "If I told you what the island was now." Meaning that it is now something other than what it used to be. Maybe reading too much into it but as with all the clues they give us, you just never know. I am sure that the island is something more than just an island, even now.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:58:39)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 04:43 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
davis: That's what I thought the first time I read it, but he says, "If I told you what the island was now."
Meaning that it is now something other than what it used to be. Maybe rading too much into it but as with all the clues they give us, you just never know. I am sure that the island is something more than just an island, even now.
Yes, I agree that the island is something more than just an island - I think we've all been thinking that, because it's one of the points of them being there in the first place. That's not the point here... the point is, not only what the island is now... but also what the island WAS.
I guess I'm still not reading the quote as the same way you are... I simply disagree with you. No matter how you slice it, "was" is past tense. What the island WAS. The "now" he's referring to is only referring to when he is feels she should or shouldn't reveal the information. Think of it this way... it's as if he said: "If I were to now tell you what the island was, you probably would never watch the show again."
Or "If I wait and don't tell you what the island was for a few more seasons, then it'll keep you guessing, and will keep luring you back."
He's still talking about what the island "was", he just feels it's too big, and would reveal too much, to tell us "now". Not sure if that clears things up or not, but I don't think the statement was intended to trip us up or anything.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 04:51 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Here I am again,probably with something already discussed,but seems slow here so I'll toss it out anyways.Deaths ,pairs and "special".All the deaths so far are one half of pre-crash ccouples or pairings.Marshall of kate/marshall,pilot of pilot/woodcutter,Joanne of Johanne/?,Scott or Steve of scott/steve,Boone of Boone/Shannon,Ethan of Ethan /other brother Ethan.Is this a pattern and if so will we be losing Jin or Sun of Jin/sun?Walt or Michael of walt/Michael?Just a pattern I noticed.Thoughts.
Probably been brought up too but about the water.Possible uses if in fact diverted.Cooling?Power ie. water wheel generator.Ballast as in sub.If touched on here gently steer me in the right direction as I am unable to find the index to this thread.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:10 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Probably been brought up too but about the water.Possible uses if in fact diverted.Cooling?Power ie. water wheel generator.Ballast as in sub.If touched on here gently steer me in the right direction as I am unable to find the index to this thread.
Hi, thatsa,
We did talk about the water some... in regard to where it's being diverted, and why. I think the discussion took place in Part 3 of this thread though. When we finally realized that the water is being diverted, we did talk about what the use would be for. I think cooling and power were two ideas.... possibly for a nucelar generator, or hydropower. I'm not sure why it would be diverted for a sub ballast.. would water have to be diverted for that reason? I think power is a good possiblity... to help run whatever power is creating the electricity for the electromagnetic field.
Perhaps THAT is what Danielle meant when she said "they control it now", in relation to the power. "They" - the others... control the water, which generates the power. She could very well have a power switch, but without the water that is generating the power, a power switch would be useless.
Just a thought.
I don't know exactly where in the thread the dicussion about the water took place - we don't have every discussion indexed and linked. I don't think we went into HUGE depth with our discussion about it either... but we did discuss and brainstorm it to some degree. Again, I think it was in Part 3...
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:16 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
ME, I see what you're saying now. It's hard to swap ideas in a posting as opposed to real time talking. I still think though, that the island was used for something in the past and because of that it is more than just an island now. Obvious I know but wanted to spell it out anyway.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:18 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Hi Me.Ballast just a shot in the dark.Sub reference meaning they fill with water to submerge.Why thinking this?Well it has been mentioned that maybe part of the island is manmade and then thinking of when the waves suddenly came up the beach causing everyone to move,did the island or part of it sink?Now that I've written this down and read it,itWill seekyour previous on water.Thanks. seems silly.So power most feasible.
Davis.Myself I beleive the island is an island.Its as Me has said,what is on the island and what was/is it used for.Experimentation?Military? Prison for someone,something?
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 08:59:22)
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:28 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
thatsa, tossing out ideas is great. You never know with this show! And just because we've discussed something, doesn't mean you might not have a new idea or angle on the subject to toss into the pot.
I think i knew what a ballast is, but wasn't sure why they'd need to divert water from an island for a sub ballast.. that's all
In looking through the past part of your thread, you might come across where I shared an idea just like what you mentioned re: the island being raised and lowered, which would account for the very sudden high tide that day. To me, this contributed to a theory that the island is indeed man made... and can somehow be raised and lowered, but without anyone realizing it.
Remember how the diary writer said that the tide came in so fast and so high that it was like someone "flipped a switch"? Maybe someone DID! However, one reason I thought this might have been done, at the time, was to flush the fuselage off the beach so that it would wash out to sea, and a search party would eventually find it and declare them all dead.
Your ballast idea made me remember something else you might find, which was some info I found on a "sea engine"... which are silent submarine engines that use electromagnetic pumps to propell subs... propelling subs with water through electromagnetic pumps. This is what I think thing might be that the diary writer thought was a whale.
Again, just theories.
Whatever the island was orignally created as, or used for, I think it's still being used, but for different purposes now... probably for sheer survival, and to find a means to finally get off the island. That is, if no one is able to get off.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:42 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Is the island abandoned and running itself,still in use which would mean monitoring and servicing which in turn means someone needs to get on and off.With respect to the radio tower/station and the hatch who keeps them going and don't say everready bunny.Sometimes a small 10 cent part can shut down a whole system so who maintains the equipment that is obviously on the island?What I'm trying to say is I'm not 100% on the idea no in or out to the island.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 05:46 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
What I'm trying to say is I'm not 100% on the idea no in or out to the island.
yeah, who knows what the real deal will end up being. i guess that's why we keep watching! until we find out for sure, when it's finally revealed, theorizing is fun!
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 06:01 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Theorizing is a blast.Can't think of another show that has made me think about it 24/7 for a long time.What sucks is I wish I had more time to theorize with youall.Later.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 08:59 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Fed, I've also been wondering if Mr. Artz' first name is a huge spoiler.
If I told you what the island was now...
I thought he meant telling us now, as opposed to at the end of the series. He could simply mean what the island was once used for, or he could actually mean that it's not really an island.
thatsamm, the water discussion starts on page 36 of Part 2.
Is the island abandoned and running itself,still in use which would mean monitoring and servicing which in turn means someone needs to get on and off.
It could be abandoned with the monitoring being done from the listening stations. If someone from the military/government had been on the island in the last 16 years, they would most likely have changed Danielle's transmission back to the numbers. However, I also think that someone collected the hairbrushes to 'prove' that they all died in the crash, which indicates that someone WAS on the island and left.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 09:56 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
special guest Inspector Clouseau says "boomp"
Thats better.Thanks Cac.I was lost in part three trying to find it.Thats alot of water to divert and hold.Where is it?Underground?The pool at the base of kate/Sawyer waterfall seems too small for a reservoir.Maybe runoff or affluent.Water at cave probably spring of which there are probably many around the island that could not be diverted.Obviously the requirement is for fresh water otherwise why divert all the fresh with a huge ocean around you.Salt water is very corrosive so salt (sodium?)is not a good thing here.Anyone research heavy water?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 10:20 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I think the reservoir might be above the pool where Kate and Sawyer swam. Imagine if that waterfall were a dam made to look natural? It could hold a lot of water behind it.
We did notice that they must want fresh water, but I don't remember any research on heavy water.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 10:22 PM
by: SheilaSwan (236 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 30, 2004
OK - this is probably not it, but...
If the island is man made, how could the tides come in so strongly, as if a switch was flipped? Could the water be used as ballast for the island? Could it be diverted for some of the time and gathered and used to make the island sink at times, so it appears that the tide is coming in quickly - but it's really the island that has gone down, making the ocean water appear to rise quickly?
Just a thought to try to explain both the water retention (besides a case of Island PMS) and the rapidly rising tides.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 10:32 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Good point Cac.The waterfall is a spillway incognito.These people don't do enough exploring.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water
Heavy water is manufactured,allows nuclear reactors that will run off pure natural unenriched uranium.Not harmful to humans or animals(depends what you read)
Sheila.Thats what I think.The island lowered somehow or a mini tsunami was generated.To be able to raise or lower something the size of an island.Quite a feat.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 23 @ 10:41 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Is the island abandoned and running itself,still in use which would mean monitoring and servicing which in turn means someone needs to get on and off.
It could be abandoned with the monitoring being done from the listening stations. If someone from the military/government had been on the island in the last 16 years, they would most likely have changed Danielle's transmission back to the numbers. However, I also think that someone collected the hairbrushes to 'prove' that they all died in the crash, which indicates that someone WAS on the island and left.
If the writers want accuracy a radio transmitter this size is going to need maintenance and repairs,especially running none stop for years as indicated.If they were to find it and pull the plug would someone come looking?
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 04:55 AM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
I thought he meant telling us now, as opposed to at the end of the series. He could simply mean what the island was once used for, or he could actually mean that it's not really an island.cac, that's how I read it, that it's not really an island.
I think that it is no longer used for its original purpose but is not completely abandoned. It can't be, if there is a power supply strong enough to operate a transmitter. Unless it is being generated on the island, by the water maybe. But where does the cable in the sand go? It originally went somewhere in the water and probably still does. Maybe we will get some more ideas as to where it goes and who controls it when the raft sets sail.
Ethan and the others wanting Claire's baby. Was it to (1) help them to recover from the illness, (2) propagate, or (3) get off the island.
Is there anyway we can stop spammers from posting here?
Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 07:48 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: It could be abandoned with the monitoring being done from the listening stations. If someone from the military/government had been on the island in the last 16 years, they would most likely have changed Danielle's transmission back to the numbers.
Yes, via satellites... Echelon... all that stuff we've been researching.
Remember in the pilot, someone commented on how a search party would be looking for them - and Sayid said something about Satellites being able to see anything from anywhere, it was simple "point and shoot" operation, but the problem is, they have to know where to point them. The implication was, if no one knew where they were, they wouldn't know where to direct the satellites in order for them to appear on a satellite. However, what if they DO know. What if the island is always being monitored by satellites anyway.... not for the purpose of monitoring the castaways, but simply to keep an eye on this abandoned, very top secret research facility (I'm speculating, mind you).
So then the government/miliator has a delima... do they rescue these crash victims, and risk exposing this top secret (probably very unethical) research facility, or do they just look the other way and leave them there??
I think this is only part of the story. I too believe that the experiment was abandoned (and the whisperers may very well have been former "subjects" of the experiment who were abandoned there as well), and now some "others" who have found themselves stranded there by reck or crash have used the equipement there for other evil purposes... as davis said "to (1) help them to recover from the illness, (2) propagate, or (3) get off the island."
davis, I'm not sure how to get rid of the spammer... though if the person keeps it up, we can probably report them and get them banned from the board.
davis: cac, that's how I read it, that it's not really an island.
davis, cac was actually saying it could be either - he's either talking about what the island was used for, or was talking about what the island "was", i.e. something other than an island. very diplomatic in saying it could be either, but at this point - that's all we can speculate as he didn't really say either way. All he said was "what the island was".
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 11:12 AM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
I know SheilaSwan reposted here the comment from Ada saying that the 44 on Sara's shirt is a significant clue, but that it's not what everyone has been thinking -in regard to the number of survivors by seasons end.
Sheila then listed some significant 44s she found while looking into the number.
I was just doing the same, and came across something interesting that I thought was worth posting. It might not be anythning - and certainly might not be what the clue was referring to, bu thought I should share it just the same, just in case... since it's Australia related, military related, "radar station" related, and 44 related:
On Wednesday 25 April [2001], thousands of Australians turned out to remember our fallen soldiers from wars and conflicts gone by. This ANZAC Day, Australian Defence Force members serving in Tindal, Darwin and on HMAS Cessnock attended the dawn service held at Adelaide River, 100 kilometres south of Darwin.
The service was held at the war cemetery, which houses both civilian and military dead who lost their lives in the bombing of Darwin.
The reasons for attending such a ceremony varied greatly among individuals, however the ceremony held historical significance for the members of No. 44 Wing Air Traffic Control Flights from Tindal and Darwin. The original formation of No. 44 Wing took place during World War II on 14 December 1942 at Adelaide River.
The Wing consisted of 24 radar stations situated all across the Top End and served as an early warning system against Japanese Air Raids. It was disbanded on 22 August 1944, but last year saw the reformation of 44 Wing at RAAF Base Williamtown. The Wing is now responsible for providing Air Traffic Services at RAAF, Army and Navy bases all across Australia.
Could a character's relative - even father... perhaps Sara's... have been a member of No. 44 Wing?
Or, it could been something as simple as a reference to the passenger in Oceanic flight 815 seat #44. I wonder who was sitting in that seat...
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 09:00:43)
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 11:47 AM
by: sdogTSOL (308 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 09, 2005
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 12:16 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
ME:What if the island is always being monitored by satellites anyway.... not for the purpose of monitoring the castaways, but simply to keep an eye on this abandoned, very top secret research facility (I'm speculating, mind you).
That's EXACTLY what I think. So far as the government is concerned, it doesn't matter what happens ON the island so long as no one OFF the island finds out anything about it.
I think the island was originally natural but has had a lot of construction on it. Mostly because I don't see the point of building a new island when there are plenty in the world that can just be taken over.
44 could refer to the experiment beginning 44 years ago -- 1960 is a possible start date. (Or 1958 if the wedding was 2 years ago.) I found this on a list of US military experiments, which ties in with Montauk again:
1958 LSD is tested on 95 volunteers at the Army's Chemical Warfare Laboratories for its effect on intelligence.
1960 The Army Assistant Chief-of-Staff for Intelligence (ACSI) authorizes field testing of LSD in Europe and the Far East. Testing of the european population is code named Project THIRD CHANCE; testing of the Asian population is code named Project DERBY HAT.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 12:52 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Some thoughts and questions about the island.It is obviously very isolated.So far there is no indication of any aircraft flying by or any ship traffic within sight of the island.If its a military establishment its most likely American.That alone would draw the attention of enemy states like flies to.......There is also a number of civilian birds up there.Its like the island is non exsitent to the rest of the world.So my main question is if so isolated and pretty much invisible why go to the extent of hiding everything underground or in the mountains?Any high magnetic anomalies natural or manmade would be detectable and being the curious creatures we are would definately draw attention.If someone were going past the location in a ship what would they see?Hear?Danielles group heard the transmission.How far away?Don't know.Sam and Lenny heard it in Australia.Noone else has heard anything over all these years.As anyone else who's worked with technology knows the more sophisticated the equipment the more maintenance required.Someone is babysitting this establishment.The radio station if anything.Is that who Boone spoke to on the radio? If military and top secret there needs to be defensive systems which would draw major attention first time used.Unless all pertinent world governments are aware and/or part of and know to ignore.Oh well.8 years and I'll have the answers I'm sure.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 01:06 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: I think the island was originally natural but has had a lot of construction on it. Mostly because I don't see the point of building a new island when there are plenty in the world that can just be taken over.
I agree, cac... that's been my feeling as well, for the same reasons. When I see there's a "crator" indicated on the map, on top of what looks like a dormant volcano, I can't imagine them constructing a fake volcano, with a crator - for what purpose? Why go through all that for an island?
There ARE man-made islands... so there must be reasons to build them, rather than use existing natural islands, but in this case, I do feel that it was an existing, natural island with much construction/modifictions to it. I still think that an underground research/experiment facility was built under the plateaus, and that the plateaus may have even built over top of the research facility.
The water may be diverted as both a power source, as well as for a water source (drinking water, etc) for the research facility. Much like Michael had a plan to divert water for showering, etc... away from their drinking water - so that they'd be separate. That was a clue as to what happened to the water.
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 01:11 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
Unless all pertinent world governments are aware and/or part of and know to ignore
If you read the information we've posted about ECHELON, and if that's who and what is behind this, then it's a group consisting of the US, UK, Australia, New Zeland and Canada. Not just the US. Though ECHELON is a system of the US National Security Admistration, and the counterpart of each country involved.
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 09:01:07)
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 02:50 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Agreed on Echelon.But....(now what she says)If the island is part of Echelon,then there needs to be a satellite receiver on the island.Basic radio tower won't do it.Think of the round white igloos we'll call them in any pix you've seen of pine gap etc.Needs to be line of sight or won't work.This could be part of the installation where the radio tower is but we don't know yet.Does seem to be an ideal location for such a station though.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 03:34 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
thatsamyguy: Agreed on Echelon.But....(now what she says)If the island is part of Echelon,then there needs to be a satellite receiver on the island.
I don't think that the island IS an Echelon receiving or monitoring station - I'm just saying that Echelon coudl be involved. We have figured out that the radio tower/antennea is underground, like the Montauk, and Pine Gap antennea's are. But it sounds like Montauk was primarily a research facility, which I think is more along the lines of what the Lost island was.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 04:23 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Eschelon was more likely involved in monitoring the island than actually being located on it.
I really think that the only involvement the US Military has had on the island for some time has been to hide and cover up what happened there in the past. That would involve sending as few people to the island as possible and not letting anyone who accidentally lands there leave. Any maintenance that's been done, has probably been done by the Others, whom I believe are there just as accidentally as everyone else.
The only thing that doesn't fit is the hairbrushes. If they were taken before the plane took off, then the crash was planned, which I don't think it was. If they were taken after the crash, then military personnel were on the island and left, which I also don't think was the case. Could they have been magically separated from the luggage as the plane went through the portal?
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 04:29 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: I really think that the only involvement the US Military has had on the island for some time has been to hide and cover up what happened there in the past.
cac, i agree.
as far as the hairbrushes go, could someone please explain to me why there has been so much attention given to "missing hairbrushes", and so much theory about what the "missing hairbrushes" mean, when we don't even know the hairbrushes ARE missing? I only ever heard of one comment in passing about someone not being able to find a hairbrush. However, if you ask me, Shannon, Claire, Sun, Kate... and even Charlie, Sayid and other survivors have always looked rather well-groomed to me. They certainly don't look like people who are lacking in hairbrushes.
So, why is everyone struggling to make sense of "missing hairbrushes" when, as far as I can see, we don't really hav much reason to think any are missing, except for one passing comment (yes, I realize a passing comment can be very significant on Lost, but I just can't see putting so much thought into it without more evidence)??
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 04:38 PM
by: daviscbls (335 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 28, 2005
ME, as far as the hairbrushes go, could someone please explain to me why there has been so much attention given to "missing hairbrushes", and so much theory about what the "missing hairbrushes" mean, when we don't even know the hairbrushes ARE missing?
When I read this it made me think of DNA. If someone wanted to be sure of exactly who was on the island, what better way then to test their DNA?
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(Date Posted:11/14/2005 09:04:50)
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 04:58 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
I agree with Claire that not finding a single hairbrush among the luggage is extremely odd, so they must have been taken by someone.
Even though they do look well groomed, we haven't seen a brush, have we?
My approach is that if the details don't fit into the overall theory, then the overall theory has to be adjusted to fit the details.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 05:32 PM
by: thatsammguy (32 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Mar 06, 2005
Ok I'm convinced for now.I'll file those thoughts away till more info surfaces.Always impressive ladies.
Do I understand correctly ,the hairbrush thing came up because of Claires comment?Dna purposes seems to be the only feasable theory.Would it not be useful only for identification purposes and not experimentation?Have a good rest of the weekend.
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 05:55 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
cac: I agree with Claire that not finding a single hairbrush among the luggage is extremely odd, so they must have been taken by someone.
THIS is what I'm asking! This is why you think there are no hairbrushes - Claire made a comment that she couldn't find a single hairbrush among the luggage? Is this true? This is what I was unaware of. What episode and scene?
Even though they do look well groomed, we haven't seen a brush, have we?
Just because we haven't seen any, doesn't mean there aren't any there. If the absense of hairbrushes were so important, wouldn't they have everyone's hair a bit disheveled?
I know you seem to waffle between the experiments being DNA or not being DNA related, cac. IF (and a big "IF") the hairbrushes were taken in some big stealth conspiracy, then the only reason I can think they'd take them is to perhaps figure out who might be the right person for whatever purposes they have a need? And I'm talking about "the others". I just don't know what purpose it would serve to know their DNA, unless they feel there are certain people - of certain DNA types - who would better help them develop a cure for the illness, or who would better help them survive?
Right now though I want to know more about that statement of Claires.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 05:50 PM
by: cac120 (1128 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Sep 03, 2004
Yes, just Claire's comment. It was in White Rabbit. She said she'd looked through a lot of bags and found lots of other toiletries, but not a single hairbrush.
There's a split in opinion on the purpose of the DNA. I think it was purely to identify the victims, while some think it's being used by the Others in the island's experiment.
Re:Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? -- Part 4
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 05:57 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
There's a split in opinion on the purpose of the DNA. I think it was purely to identify the victims, while some think it's being used by the Others in the island's experiment.
and then some of us doubt that the hairbrushes were even taken, much less anyone is looking to get DNA off them.
so, who on the island would have taken the hairbrushes simply for the purpose of IDing the victims? how could they ID them anyway, and why would they care - if it's only to identify them?
This came up after Boone heard "There were no survivors..." If the person speaking to him is outside the island, he believes that they are all dead, so someone must have proven it to him wreckage from the crash and identification of at least some of the passengers. The only ones with motive and opportunity to do this would be the government. Somehow they got the brushes and used the hair in them to identify the remains of the crash victims.
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Posted: Apr 24 @ 06:23 PM
by: MEandthesea (1177 Posts in the last 90 days) Registered: Jan 21, 2005
The only ones with motive and opportunity to do this would be the government. Somehow they got the brushes and used the hair in them to identify the remains of the crash victims.
right, but you've alreaday said that you think the government is only involved right now to monitor the island and to make sure they don't get off. I just can't quite picture how it is that someone, or some people, were able to actually go through ALL the lugage that has been located (or not located) and remove hairbruhes... and that would also mean that people ARE getting on and off the island.
If you're speaking in terms of the what might have been used to make the search party think they were all dead, the idea I like better is the wreckage being washed off shore so that a search party would find it and declaire that there couldn't have been any survivors.
However, I agree that, having now read the transcript from that scene, that it does seem like a "clue". In Lost, statements l
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