lost1002     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 07:31 PM

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 1 Posts

 Registered: Feb 23, 2005 07:29 PM

i think thats true

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 07:39 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

I just saw another thread about what I noticed on the beach with Jin... when the camera's focused on his ear and the shouts started to sound like gibberish. Other posters noticed it as well and agree that it was the writers'/director's way of letting the viewers know what Jin was hearing... how all the yelling must sound to him, since he doesn't speak English.

Until that scene,I really thought we would find that Jin could speak Englsih... but now I'm leaning toward him not speaking English.

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 07:47 PM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

I noticed that too, with the ear. Unfortunately during that scene I had a 9 year old yammering in my right ear about spelling words and the hubby yammering in my left about dinner so I understood just about as much as Jin.

I swear I'm buying a second TV this weekend and they are both banished next week.;0p

I thought Jack was making a move toward Sawyer during the fight and someone pulled him back with a comment about it being between Jin/Michael. (See yammering explaination above)

Also, anyone notice the dead guy (scott/steve) during the fight scene? Sure gets around a lot for being dead. LOL

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 07:51 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

One, I noticed the guy you're referring to... I think... but thought it was Steve (not scott). I would not put money on it though... either way. 

Oh, and about Jack and fighting and all.. I'd have to rewatch it to be 100%... but I just remember thinking that I was impressed that everyone was trying to stop the fight - especially Jack. Funny how people can see the same thing and interpret it differently! Though, sounds like you had some extra challenges on your plate. LOL! 

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 08:09 PM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

I was so hoping the PurpleHushPuppySpy would stop by this thread after watching tonight. I noticed her on another. I'd like to know if we are remotely on the right track with any of this.

Guess we should add Shannon to the list of starting overs. Actually her reaction to Lockes advice and the promo shot of her and Sayid saying goodbye for next week really makes me think he's gonna bite the big one. Another taste of irony.

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 08:35 PM

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 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

oh man, oh man, oh man...so much to talk about. i just read through what you all picked up...nothing i don't agree with.

looks like my one and only gamble was wrong!!! i don't think he can understand english. but i am confused about his reaction to hurley and his response to sun...still some confusion there.

way to go on the tv in the tv thing. i caught it imediately! i was hollering at my husband to pause and rewind the tivo!

glad to see that jin isn't the bad man we originally thought. but why? pray tell, did he tell sun it was too late? especially after the conversation with his father? confused on that part.

good for her in her own "rebirth" moment at the end. and hilarious about hurley looking at claire's stomach and then his own...we were laughing like crazy.

i also heard someone tell jack that "this is their fight", like he was trying to get involved.

once again...locke knows all. kind of figured it was walt after the talk with micheal...but how does that man just KNOW everything? good for him to finally voice tothe whole group about the "others"...good segway into next week.

noticed we saw more hurley this episode, also a good segway into next week...

i wanted to get on much earlier, but alas my 4 boys...yes, that is 4 needed some momma time... so now, i sit here writing as the house is quiet...well, except for my husbands snoring from the couch! i love you guys, and i'm really looking forward to chatting again tomorrow. for now, i'm going to go sleep on it!

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 23, 2005 09:49 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I'm finally here and you're all in bed. I don't really have much to add because I noticed all the same things you've already said.

Congrats, ME, on predicting the TV! You did far better than me. I was actually a little disappointed because the episode I'd written in my head was better.

I assumed Hurley was on TV for winning the lottery, but that would hardly be news in Korea. Maybe it has to do with the curse on his family.

Walt had a homecoming. He's happier on this strange island than he was being dragged all over the world by his mother. He's finally found a family with his dad. I think he did burn the raft with his mind. By the end of Special, Michael had accepted Walt's gift and I think he agreed with Locke that it could be useful. We haven't been shown it, but I think they might have been working with him and that he might be beginning to understand what he can do. At the very least, he's probably experimenting with little visualizations and I think the raft might have been an experiment that he expected to fail. He did look genuinely surprised when he saw it and he came running with his father, as though they'd been together when the fire started.

Shannon got her tabula rasa and Locke wasn't even cryptic about his advice.

I noticed a few things that don't fit the patterns we've been discussing. Jin seems to have already resolved his Daddy Issue and he was looking forward to arriving in LA because he planned to kidnap Sun himself. They'd have had a fresh start even if they hadn't landed on the island. Sun was happy at the end because she got what she wanted, her freedom. Everyone else learned that what they thought they wanted (Charlie's fame, Sawyer's revenge . . . ) was actually bad for them.

Speaking of Sawyer, I LOLed at his "Good thing I'm a saver, not a spender," line to Jack. Even though Jack wasn't in on the joke, he seemed to be mocking him about what he learned last week.

Maybe I missed things, but they seemed to answer all of our questions without asking any more. This just seems too tidy, but I didn't see anything which makes me suspicious. Which makes me suspicious. Is this what our friend meant when she said they were redoing things to please the network? I'd rather think that I'm missing things.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 05:56 AM

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 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

hi cac,

i just read your post. i was wondering about this part...

Speaking of Sawyer, I LOLed at his "Good thing I'm a saver, not a spender," line to Jack. Even though Jack wasn't in on the joke, he seemed to be mocking him about what he learned last week.

I'm not sure how Sawyer's line to Jack here related to what Sawyer learned last week about Jack? I know I'm just missing it... but wondered if you could explain. It implies that Jack's a spender?

Also, I still feel that Walt isn't aware of his special abilities yet, and I think any surprised look might have been because he couldn't comprehend what his dad's raft would look like when it was raging on fire like that. And, he might have been surprised at HOW upset his dad was. I paid attention at his and Locke's face when they ran onto the beach, and neither seemed very upset. I do think Walt just took a burning piece of wood from the other fires and torched it manually... but, I could be wrong. I just think it's a little early in the story for Walt to be aware of and harnessing his special abilities yet.

As far as the producers re-working this show because of ABC and Disney's bellyaching, I think ourdearpurpleone said that the next few episodes will remain "as is"... intact... but it's the shows after that which are anyone's guess.

So, all - do we no longer think Sun is pregnant? I wonder what that look was all about then? Maybe Jin was actually concerned about Claire's baby when he asked about it, or maybe he and Sun lost a child, or maybe they've been in disagreement about having a child. If Sun has been thinking about leaving Jin, she may have been doing all she can to prevent getting pregnant.

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 05:58 AM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

Good Morning All! Sorry cac, was Losted out last night and had to log off.

I sincerely hope they don't dumb down this program to please the morons. I've noticed they are giving more blatant hints in the past couple of epi's.

I'm going back to look at all the connections we're trying to make to see if I can find more.

  lost_preacher     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 06:04 AM

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 67 Posts

 Registered: Feb 08, 2005 06:58 AM

Did anybody notice the great purple one's clues were revealed in great detail last night?

Maybe that is why she is on a "vacation".

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 06:24 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

she's given so many wonderful clues... which clues are you referring to?

I know she gave some clues within the past week that I was trying to solve - I'm afraid I can't find them folks... have any of you?

I know the clue about Jack and what might be going on with him... and A. gave a clue about Special not just being about Walt... and there was the clue about how there was one thing that happened in Outlaws that hadn't happened in any other episode yet. But, can't remember of find the other clues of A's.

Lost_preacher, which clues were you referring to? Could you post them?

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:53 AM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Good morning,

Sawyer is still 'saving' the message for Jack; he hasn't 'spent' it yet.

I've come up with a few questions, but they are of the logical sort -- things that aren't consistent with what has happened before.

If Jin was ready to leave Sun's father, why did the watch mean so much to him when Michael had it? He's obviously not going to make the scheduled delivery. It's only sentimental value is something he wants to avoid. Was it just because it was Michael? Was it a performance to continue deceiving Sun? Does Jin need the watch for some other purpose?

Why was he ashamed of his father? He's a waiter; what is so shameful about being a fisherman? Did he tell Sun and her father that his father was dead because he already knew about the mafia and wanted to protect his father?

Why did he go to talk to his father? The trip to America was already planned. Had Jin already decided he wasn't coming back and just wanted to say goodbye to his father?

Except for the nice things he said about her to his dad, Jin was very cold to Sun. I know they explained it with stress, but to me it seemed that he'd got what he wanted and no longer had a use for her.

Why was he a waiter? This is a classic job held by out of work actors and undercover spys.

Did Jin really thing they'd be safe in America, where her father has business connections? Would Sun's father just sit back and let him steal his daughter? He must have had some plan to disappear. Was he planning to fake their deaths or go into the witness protection program?

The only conclusion I can draw is that Jin is still misleading us.

I'm not just trying to justify my prediction, btw. It's just that I don't see any other answers to these questions. The ear scene convinced me that he doesn't understand English, but then why did Sun speak to him in English? Did he miss the best part of what she was saying and that's why he left her?

The TV - Hurley getting into a car - What is usually happening in news reports when you see someone getting into a car? Was he being arrested?

Hurley's discman - I've noticed it before and wondered how the batteries had lasted so long. He seemed kind of surprised that it stopped. I wonder if it's a special one that we will see him splurge on next week. Maybe solar powered? I'm guessing Hurley's found his own bags because I think we've seen him wear more than one shirt and who else's would fit?

I'll have to watch Walt more closely next time because I think he could have used either his hands or his mind. I also noticed Locke's expression and that he just stood there while the others were trying to put out the fire.

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:28 AM

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 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

good morning all....

yes, please share the clues, as i'm clueless on what they are. i'd love to know, so we can disect them!

don't forget, we also learned that locke had additional daddy issues. i think last we noted, it was a lack of a father (foster home), but now we know he did have one (duh! we all have fathers, walt), and that he wasn't a cool guy.

did i miss something in the past, or is this the first time we heard walt call micheal "dad"? i thought in the past he was angry and even told him "you aren't my dad"... am i right? he's come a long way. of course, being saved from an attacking polar bear would make anyone grateful!

someone in another thread traslated the tv words when hurley was on...said something to the effect of "big lottery winner, USA". was sort of on a cnn kind of channel in korea...world news and such.

what did you all think of hurley's look at his stomach after looking at claire's? i had a couple of thoughts.

1. laughed out loud, slapped knee

2. upon further thought, wonder if it wasn't foreshadowing. much talk has been going on about the fact that a guy like hurley would most surely lose weight if stranded on an island. now, two additional thoughts come from this... one, he is going to be the one to die and this was just a nod to all of the talk about his weight...or two, his is NOT the one to die and we will see him start to lose weight...

either way, it was a definite nod to viewers that "hey, we hear you and we know..."

will someone please share thoughts on why jin told sun it was too late? after what he'd been through and what he supposedly wanted, why would he dismiss her like that? did it have somehtng to do with her speaking to him in english during that part. i thought it was strange that she would change it up mid conversation...especially at the most critical of moments. but i also noticed that he seemed to understand exactly what she said. but then he told her it was too late...WHY? i don't get that.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:36 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

anni,

i've heard that it's definitely not Hurley who dies. I really think it's Locke.

I was just reading another thread where lost_preacher posted that there were a lot of clues in last night's episode about who gets killed... but it's not Hurley, and not Locke.

Now I can't wait to watch it again!

I posted earlier in this thread that I thought the "one thing" that happened in Outlaws that hadn't happened in any other esisode was when Sawyer connected the dots and realized he had met Jack's father... so it was the first time one of the survivors realized they had a connection with one of the other survivors - the first time the outside world was brought in.

I think the clues that lost_preacher may have been talking about was in reference to who dies... i wish i could remember which thread that was in! I'll have to look again...

  lost_preacher     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:39 AM

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 67 Posts

 Registered: Feb 08, 2005 06:58 AM

1- The shows are being played in sets. Each set is thematic. This set runs from Homecoming (1.15) to Numbers (1.18). Clues, hints, subthemes, everything has been thought out in a four episode run, so when it finishes, what we look at will make more sense.

2- it looks like the death will turn up after the break, but with a big hint about it in Ep. 18. It will leave you very frustrated for the next 6 weeks, so talk it all out during that time

3 -You are wathing the writers right hand (jumping up and down, up and down and yelling "Look here!"). Watch the left hand, which is sneaking some stuff behind your back.

Homecoming. Whose homecoming?

4 -Special had more to do with something else than with Walt!

5- There was an episode that did not contain 815, which is significant

6- (From Kristin) Charlie is not the one who will die. But I can tell you that this person is well-loved, well-featured and well, doomed. It is one of the fourteen series regulars -- one of the BIGGEST characters -- and the episode is guaranteed to make you bawl your ever-lovin' eyes out. It's a boy who dies. Basically, something catastrophic happens, and because someone LIES about what happened, ultimately, they are unable to be saved.

There are more clues, but these are only some I will provide you with for now.

Have fun!

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:43 AM

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 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

THANKS! preacher.... let's go!

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:46 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Here is a spoiler from A. that I found in a past post of hers... regarding the person who will die...

The person who dies finds the answer to one of the island mysteries, and someone else knows that they are in danger, but doesn't tell anyone because then --- hmmmmmm ----let's just say that someone doesn't want something to end. So the person who finds the island mystery gets killed. Sadly. You're gonna cryyyyyyyyyyy!!!!

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:56 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Thanks, preacher. We'll keep working on those.

  MingoLeger     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:56 AM

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 1212 Posts

 Registered: Nov 02, 2004 12:47 PM

WOW! I finally had the time to jump in here and read this thread.

One, ME, anni, cac - you guys have some incredible ideas! I enjoyed reading all your posts.

cac - I have one question about something you posted a couple pages back - about Shannon's ex-husband? Please forgive that my memory is also not great about all the minute details of the show, but I don't remember anything about Shannon being married. I thought that was the excuse Boone first gave the police as to why they had different last names, but then told the truth that they were really just step-siblings. Did I dream that, miss something, or just totally nuts?

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:03 AM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Mingo, I don't think Boone had any reason to make up Shannon having an ex-husband. It sounds like her marriage didn't last very long, just like Kate's.

My first message this morning got posted back a page, two up from the preacher's. Just thought I'd let you know, in case anyone missed it.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:05 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Here is another piece from one of A.'s posts from another thread... reminding us of how to think about Homecoming...

I was rather surprised that so many people were disappointd in Homecoming. It was layered with information, and no, I don't mean the laser thing. There was no laser, just to settle that one. But here is what was there: The title refers to other things more than to Claire. In fact, Claire was incidental. Watch it again, and see if you can see what the writers were trying to get across to you. Who is having a homecoming here? What is a homecoming? In other words, what is the key element of missing home? Memories, perhaps? Knowledge of what is real and what isn't? The place where you are known, and where you belong? Where we love? Who had a homecoming? Who DIDN'T?

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:06 AM

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 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

ME, do you think it has something to with Boone finding the plane and the drug cargo? the whispers make mention of someone "ruining it" or something. is the island a growing/processing stop for drugs? or a stop off for drug runners? does he find it, tell someone (like Locke) and when they go to investigate, one of them gets killed by the others?

mingo, boone did say that shannon was briefly married. i wasn't sure if that was to explain the difference in last names, or if it was true. i don't recall it ever really explained on way or the other. it wouldn't suprise me if she had been..

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:21 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

cac... I just read your post on the previous page.

I totally get what you're saying about Sawyer's comment re: saving - GOOD CATCH! Wow - that totally went over my head, but makes perfect sense.

I didn't think it was odd that Jin would be embarrassed by his father - not sure why he said he was dead, unless he WAS trying to protect him, but at the time of their wedding, I don't think he was fully aware of his father-in-law's less than honorable business "tactics", though seems odd that he'd be so unware if Jin's father was invovled in the Korean mafia (if that's so).

Basically, even though Jin was a waiter... many young people want to be different or better than their parents... Look at Jack, who was a doctor, just like his dad, but despirately wanted to be different than his dad, who he was embarrased of. Jin thought money would make him happy, but it made him miserable... because he had to do dishonorable things to maintain it.

I think Sun's father only agreed to let Sun marry Jin (a mere waiter - clearly below her) because he knew he could manipulate Jin and get him to do his dirty work... especially after Jin said that Sun was his "dream". I don't think had any idea what he was getting into.

Eventually the demands of Sun's father overpowered thier marriage... he had no time to be the husband to Sun that he wanted to be, and she wanted to be, because her father had him on the go all the time doing his dirty work - which tore Jin up. The price he had to pay for marrying Sun was defeating the purpose of marrying her. It was getting too hard on him - he wanted Sun, but wanted free of it. In the meantime, as Jin was consumed by his father-in-law's demands, Sun was feeling isolated and lonely... and began to question Jin's character. Sadly, as someone else said, if they had only talked - and realized they both felt the same and wanted the same thing...

Anyway, Jin's coldness may have been resentment for what Sun's father put him through - misplaced resentment. It could be that the pressure of it all created a wall between them... and he sensed he was losing her... so reacted out of those feelings to try and keep her. Part of it also might have been sheer fear, and desire to protect her in the only way he knew how according to his cultural values and customs.

All in all, as far as Jin's father goes, I think Jin realized that his father was a much bigger, better, honorable man than Sun's father, and wished he had realized it a lot sooner.

  lost_preacher     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:09 AM

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 67 Posts

 Registered: Feb 08, 2005 06:58 AM

MEandthesea , could find with that one A clue. I was looking for that myself but couldn't find where it was.

That clue is a big one, and I think last night's episode shed a lot of light on it.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:14 AM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

It sounds to me that Locke might be the one who lets the person die because he said last night that he likes being on the island.

  MingoLeger     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:20 AM

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 1212 Posts

 Registered: Nov 02, 2004 12:47 PM

Thanks, cac and anni. The Boone/Shannon FB seems like 20 years ago, and I didn't remember the details. So I guess we still don't really know if she was indeed married or if Boone was lying. Another unanswered question.

Keep up the good stuff, you guys. A very interesting thread worth reading.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:23 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

But remember, Walt has expresed that he wants to stay on the island too... to the point of committing arson.

Walt also lied last night about setting the raft on fire -- or at least he didn't admit it. Locke and Walt are the only two who know.

Could be that Locke is the one that dies, and Walt is the one who keeps the secret.

I can't imagine Walt LETTING Locke die though, just to stay on the island... if he could prevent it. If so that's one twisted little kid.

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  MingoLeger     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:35 AM

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 1212 Posts

 Registered: Nov 02, 2004 12:47 PM

I remember the "wise purple sage" saying that something happened in "Outlaws" that hasn't happened in any other episode and I've been trying to figure out what ever since.

Someone posted on here (please forgive me for not remembering who) that Outlaws was the first episode in which two of the lostaways paths crossed prior to the crash (Sawyer and Jacks' dad). Couple of thoughts on that - first, Jack's dad isn't really one of the castaways, and second, Sawyer was seen in Boone's FB in Hearts and Minds, so wouldn't that be the first path-crossing? Good idea, though.

What I was thinking - and this is where I need all you folks with really good memories to either confirm or refute this theory for me - was Outlaws the first time any of the lostaways revealed stories from their past to another lostaway? Other than snippets, I mean. Sayid telling Charlie the story about the car bombing and firing squad incident, and Locke telling the Golden Retriever story.

I know people have revealed bits and pieces to each other (in the "I never" game for example) but has anyone gone into such detailed stories before?

  lost_preacher     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:28 AM

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 67 Posts

 Registered: Feb 08, 2005 06:58 AM

cac120,

Yes, Locke likes the island, but who else does.

I think it is becoming more clear who wants to stay on the island, who feel they belong, and who doesn't.

It's obvious that Sawyer and Micheal do not want to stay because they were 2 of the passengers on the boat. Who else wants off?

Who wants to stay? Locke, Walt, possibly now Shannon.

If someone who wanted to stay discovered the island's mystery, why would the person lie when if they know they are in danger. If the one who lies wants to stay on the island and the one who discovers the secret wants to stay too, why bother to lie, the secret would probably be safe.

Also, could this be a lead up to the "Sides" episode?

(This may have already been discussed, but I usually never read anything unless it was A).

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:35 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Lost_preacher...

We've already seen how a son will lie for a father's approval... to not disappoint a father.

Walt could be the one who lies... simply so he didn't have to tell his father where he was... that he was with Locke.... that he was doing something dangerous.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:42 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

ME, your answers to my questions are what I was talking about last night about it being too tidy an answer. Explaining everything so neatly hasn't happened before. That's why I'm suspicious that we are being misled and there's something more that we aren't noticing.

Is 'denying the father' a Biblical reference? I have a feeling it is, but can't remember who or why.

Is the baby controling Claire's dreams? Is he the prophetic one? His father is an artist as well so it stands to reason that the baby will inherit a special way of seeing just like Walt.

Jin & Sun had a Homecoming, but now that's been messed up. Sayid returned to being a soldier.

Sun looked pretty content on the beach. She wants to stay. Sayid seems to have forgotten about Nadia and will stay if Shannon does. Boone doesn't want to leave Locke or his meditation hatch. Charlie and Claire have each other.

Jack & Kate - Not sure, but I think they still want to go. Hurley wants more batteries, available only off the island.

I think what happened for the first time in Outlaws is that Sawyer realized that he has a connection to Jack and we know that he has the message which Jack needs for his redemption/catharsis/whatever. I suspect this is the start of yet another pattern.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:43 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Someone posted on here (please forgive me for not remembering who) that Outlaws was the first episode in which two of the lostaways paths crossed prior to the crash (Sawyer and Jacks' dad). Couple of thoughts on that - first, Jack's dad isn't really one of the castaways, and second, Sawyer was seen in Boone's FB in Hearts and Minds, so wouldn't that be the first path-crossing? Good idea, though.

Ming, I think you're referring to my posts about this on this thread... and you don't have it quite right. I wasn't saying it was the first time two of the lostaways pasths crossed prior to the crash. I know that isn't the case.

What I said was, Outlaws was the first time any of the survivors realized, on the island, they had a prior connection with any of the other survivors. What I'm talking about is the scene where Sawyer was talking to Jack, and Sawyer realized that he had met Jack's dad. I know it was Jack's dad and not Jack, but it was a connection to Jack (Remember, we've been told all survivors will be connected, but not necessarily directly).

My main point was, this was the first time one of the castaways realized they had a pre-island connection with one of the other castaways. It was that type of realization that happened for the first time in Outlaws.

Whether that's what A. was referring to, I don't know... was never confirmed.

Btw, this was my original post about this, clear back on page 4 of this thread...

Ada, about your Outlaws hint... the one thing that happened during that episode that hasn't happened yet is that one of the castaways figured out a connection he has with one of the other castaways -when Sawyer realized that he had met Jack's dad. That is the first time that has happened in any episode.

Is this what you were referring to, or was it something else?

I remember getting a a certain feeling when Sawyer made the connection as he talked to Jack - was very... small world-ish - and also felt like a certain door was opening.

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:42 AM

reply

 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

thanks, mingo! we are thoroughly enjoying ourselves here!

so, back to the origin of the thread, the titles. now that we've seen in translation...we have even more layers upon layers of it's meaning!

1.jins understanding of the islanders

2. jin and sun misunderstanding eachothers intentions at reconcilliation

3. jin, misunderstanding sun's fathers request at "delivering a message"

4. jin misunderstanding his own father's love

5. jin m/u what wealth would mean

6. what marrying sun actually did...as ME said, defeated the pupose

7. their actions really did play a huge part in not matching what their words said

aside from jin/sun...

1. walt's reason for burning down the raft was lost in translation...micheal is planning to rebuild

2. shannon caring about what boone thinks...thought she's "show him" by griping about it...but really just gave him what he wanted...her attention

i'm sure there are others....can't think right now

  MingoLeger     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:48 AM

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 1212 Posts

 Registered: Nov 02, 2004 12:47 PM

Thanks for clearing that up, ME. I should have read your original post more carefully. I got what you are saying now, and I believe you may have it the nail on the head.

This is one of the best threads I've read lately. Keep it up you guys, this is great stuff!

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:59 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

no problem, Mingo! I know it's hard to remember everything and keep it all straight...

Please stay and keep sharing your ideas! We're having a lot of fun - and welcome anyone interested in talking Lost! 

  MingoLeger     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:00 AM

reply

 1212 Posts

 Registered: Nov 02, 2004 12:47 PM

Thanks, ME. I'd love to stay! At least there is no nasty stuff going on in here!

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:02 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Here's my list of how the Sides are lining up. I've listed them from the person I feel most confident about wanting to stay/go to the one I'm least sure about.

Want to stay:

Locke

Walt

Boone

Sun

Shannon

Sayid

Charlie

Claire

Want to leave:

Michael

Sawyer

Hurley

Jack

Kate

Jin

  Sheila_B_4     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:03 AM

reply

 323 Posts

 Registered: Nov 05, 2004 07:25 AM

I donn't know if this could be done but what if we start a seperate thread for each episode so that we could all compaire notes?

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:11 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Is it Jack who has the homecoming? He finally lives up to his potential as a leader when he's forced to deal with Ethan.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:15 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Sheila, i understand your thinking... that perhaps it would keep things more organzied... but I don't know if I could stand having to jump from thread to thread to keep up and contribute and figure this all out. Feels like it would be even more overwhelming and disjointed to me... but that's just me.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:17 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Sheila,

I thought about separate threads when I started this one, but I worried that it would be too difficult to keep track of. That's why I decided to do a summary post indexed at the front. Unfortunately, the conversations have been so interesting that I haven't been able to keep up with updating the summaries.

I was thinking that during the six week break I might start a thread with each of the summaries and see if that would encourage on topic discussion.

  carizara     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:26 AM

reply

 23 Posts

 Registered: Nov 18, 2004 10:36 AM

May I jump in here for a minute with a question? As the characters flashbacks are shown and we see previous connections between characters do the characters realize that they have connections with each other? In Outlaws, Sawyer remembered the conversation he had in the bar when he was talking to Jack. Does Boone realize that Sawyer was also in the police station? He didn't show any awareness of the fact. Does Jin realize that Hurley was on the TV?

Please forgive if this question has been asked before.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:30 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

The concensus is that Boone has not realized it was Sawyer because he was distracted and it was before Locke taught Boone how to look at things.

I also think Jin was too distracted to notice the TV.

However, if Hurley made the news in Korea, how much coverage must he had at home? Why hasn't anyone else recognized him?

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:57 AM

reply

 943 Posts

 Registered: Nov 29, 2004 12:37 PM

Hey all,

I had to go back and read everything since last night, and am again impressed with the thorough, thoughtful posts.

A couple of my thoughts:

As far as why Sun spoke to Jin in English in the cave, I think it was pinkgoddess who said in another thread that this was a passive/aggressive tactic on her part. She wanted to let it out, explain why she had learned English and not told him, but was simultaneously afraid of how much this would hurt him.

He says "it's too late", but I don't know if it really is, or if even he thinks it really is. Jin was humiliated in front of the entire group, not just by being beaten up and having her sort of come to his rescue, but also bc it was painfully obvious to everyone that he had no idea, and he's been played for a fool. His pride and honor have been severely wounded. He needs to give himself some space, like anyone who has just been in a huge fight/breakup would. I feel like ultimately they will reconcile.

Also, whether or not anything actually "happened" btwn Sun & Michael, there was SOMETHING going on, and Jin sensed it. He feels betrayed by this now too, and rightly so.

I think it's pretty clear, from all indications and the direction, that Jin does NOT speak/understand English. His confusion and fear on the beach were perfectly clear, and his first attempt at communication-"boat"-was obviously a first step toward integrating himself into the group. As far as Hurley and the fishing poles, another example of how communication is possible without actual words. It was fairly clear what Hurley was suggesting there.

Last night's was one of the best episodes so far, IMHO. The way we got to see the flip side of the scene where he came home covered in blood, wow. He is so miunderstood, especially by his own wife. She feared him, thinking he was capable of extreme violence, which he was, but as an attempt to prevent even GREATER violence, ie him beating that guy up to prevent the guy in the white suit from shooting him..

Sun's father is obviously a powerful corrupt and influential businessman, but nothing to indicate "mafia ties" per se.

Episode title referenced so many things: Jin's delivering "the wrong message" in the first place, Sun interpreting the blood, Jin and his relationship to the rest of the group, Sun slapping Michael and why, the fact that Sun & Jin stopped talking to each other and how that destroyed their marriage...

Gaah, reading before I remember thinking "I really want to comment on that" and now I can't think what it was...

I'll be back...

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:42 AM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

I think the big twist of in translation is Shannon.

All we've heard her do is complain about being on the island. We saw a complete 180 with her last night. She dropped everything that was before and for the first time made a connection with a man that did not have any strings attached.

Could the title "In Translation" refer back to the recording from the pilot part II? That is the only thing that has been literally translated on the show and it was Shannon who did it. Could she have made a mistake in translating or did she deliberately not tell the others something that was on it? Did we ever get a clear idea of what was said on that message?

If she deliberately did not tell, this sets Sayid up nicely to take the fall with that little twist of irony I spoke of before and brings us back around again to the final episode which is supposed to start at the beginning with the getting on the plane.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:59 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

I agree that we saw a big turn in Shannon last night... perhaps she's finally starting to grow up... or she at least no longer feels compelled to continue living her life by past habits she created for herself.

I think it's been discussed on the boards, after correct translations from those who know French, that Shannon wasn't 100% accurate in her translation of the tranission. However, I really don't think it was intentional on her part. She made it clear to them that she barely knew French, so I think she did the best she could... and yes, some of it was lost in translation.

Ironic though, that she and Sayid would end up together - after she was the person who originally translated that transmission, and he's the one who met the person speaking in the transmission. Though, maybe not so ironic - since it was logical that Sayid would ask for her help in translating the maps he stole from Danielle. This provided opportunity for them to get to know each other better...

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:57 AM

reply

 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

Hey! If Locke knew that Walt started the fire why'd he throw the fit on the beach and point the finger at the others?

Was he just fishing with Walt and really didn't know but suspected or was the fit on the beach to turn everyone's attention toward a confrontation with the others? I think we missed something really big here.

  carizara     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:58 AM

reply

 23 Posts

 Registered: Nov 18, 2004 10:36 AM

Thanks cac! I've only been able read some of this thread, but I just have to say that this is one of the most intelligent and fun threads that I've seen on this board in a long time. This is what the boards are supposed to be about. The stupidity that goes on around here has caused me to stop coming on the boards for almost a month.

Thank all of you very much for this thread.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:20 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

One, Locke's outburst about the "other's" too... and I immediately thought he only did this to deflect the blame and the group's focus. I think Locke knew Jin was not guilty, and suspected Walt... but he didn't want Walt to get in trouble, and Locke's way of diverting suspicion from any of the castaways was to "wave his right hand" as he pointed at the others... at least as a possibility. When I saw that scene in the promos, I thought he was doing so to throw them off the trail of suspecting HIM of the crime.

Up until this point, Locke has seemed unhappy when anyone has mentioned or brought up the notion that there could be anyone else on the island, even though I believe he probably the first to be aware that this is true.

When Sayid came back from Danielle's and told them they were "not alone", Locke looked irritated - as if a secret was discovered that he didn't want them to know.

When Hurley found out from his census and the passenger list that one of them was not on the list - Locke seemed equally irriated... or unhappy... but seemed more about this info being discovered, not because it was disturbing news.

Finally, when they went off tracking Claire, Ethan and Charlie, Locke was so intent on them taking the one trail, even though Kate and Jack felt the other trail seemed the better one. Locke kept insisting that he could continue on alone, without them - and they wouldn't go. I kept thinking Locke wanted to be alone so they wouldn't find anything.

So, besides being involved in the Ethan ambush, up until tonight, I've felt like DOESN'T want them to think about who else might be on the island. But last night he waves his arms and shouts and rants... about how there are others on the island "And we ALL know it!" - which struck me as contradictory to what his previous attitude toward the survivors knowing about or looking for the other people on the island. Again, I think he did it solely as a diversion... to protect Walt, and because he knew Jin was innocent.

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  carizara     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:04 AM

reply

 23 Posts

 Registered: Nov 18, 2004 10:36 AM

I have to agree with you oneislost. Something just didn't seem right with the conversation between Locke and Walt. I think Locke suspected Walt set the fire, but he didn't know for sure. I also don't really go for Walt's reason for burning the raft.

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:12 AM

reply

 943 Posts

 Registered: Nov 29, 2004 12:37 PM

I remember what I wanted to say!

The scene with Walt and Michael, with him telling him about NYC: We've discussed before the possibility/probability that Michael also has whatever "powers" Walt may have, and has channeled this into his art and his drawings. Remember in this scene, he talks about the buildings and architecture, and says something like "seeing the buildings made me first want to draw..." and "I want to show you them. You want to see it don't you? Don't you want to SEE it?" which I think ties into the whole manifestation thing...

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:15 AM

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 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

sheila and others, i really like being able to come to this one place and see what everything right here and share with you all, knowing that you all are right here.

is there anyway to edit the first post to have links to the summaries of each title as cac finishes them? that way, if we need to go to a certain title and review, we can go right to that page?

i agree, shannon has grown a ton. she all of a sudden had a light bulb go off while talking to Locke...but then again...who doesn't??????

anyone think that sawyer might be the one to go? i've heard hurley, locke, jack...

i'm really wondering about it being Walt. he seems like such a hugely important part of all of this, but with the clues, i could see him fitting the bill.

  Sheila_B_4     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:23 AM

reply

 323 Posts

 Registered: Nov 05, 2004 07:25 AM

I think that over the break we should open a seperate thread for each episode. I know that it will be hard to keep track of each one but it is getting hard to read everything here. I actually printed out this whole thread so that I can read it on my off line time. (I am on line only at work due to the mommy job I have at night. (two kids both sick you know the deal!)

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:26 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

I kind of feel like anni... wanting to come to this one place... I'm afraid we'd lose each other and the flow of thought if we break it all up.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:50 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Is it Jack who has the homecoming? He finally lives up to his potential as a leader when he's forced to deal with Ethan.

Cac, I think Jack will finally live up to his potential as a leader, or will finally start to find some resolution, when he gets to the point where he realizes he DOESN'NT have to deal with everything and everyone. The day he can just let things go, or walk away, rather than feeling responsible or feeling he has to rescue everyone or always get involved, and feel ok about it... is the day he'll be able to begin starting over himself.

He tries very hard to do this - to not take it all on... to not get involved.. but a lot is pushed on him, expected of him... and although much of this comes from external sources, much of it is internal as well. It's an innerstruggle of his... a deamon.

As has been said before on these boards by other folks (including A., I think), THIS is why his father said he'll never be a leader... because he CAN'T just walk away. Because he feels responsible for everyone... for saving everyone... and he can't handle it when he isnt able to.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 11:21 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Another interesting thought/parallel...

The way Sun slapped Michael to protect/save Michael from a worse pummeling from Jin... parallel's the way Jin beat up that guy in order to protect/save him from being killed.

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 11:28 AM

reply

 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

Maybe rather than breaking the thread we just need to keep touching back to the original reason for it by bringing links to the episode pages to the front or something. I have a hard time remembering what's going on in more than 1 or 2 threads.

Jack: To me, the inability to step into a leadership role comes from indecisiveness rather than failure to walk away. Jack can't make up his mind to do either so when things get to tough he disassociates and shuts down. I saw this happen in the 3 episode and very clearly when Claire was missing. All gung ho to go find her and when they couldn't find her immediately he totally backed off and didn't even consider going after her again. Not because he was afraid of Ethan but because he couldn't have quick resolution and couldn't make a decision on the best course of action.

I found it very strange that the rest of the group chose to follow his lead and not do anything to find Claire. Locke/Boone weren't looking for her at all and I don't remember anyone else leaving camp with that specific purpose in mind.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 11:46 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Thank you, ME, I didn't want Jack to be the one who's had the homecoming. I think our friend asked us to think about this because the person who has had a homecoming is the one who has completed his purpose on the island.

What about Sawyer? Jack, Locke and Sayid asked him to join in setting the trap for Ethan. Is this the first time that the others have invited Sawyer to be a part of something? I'm thinking that the other times he has always pushed himself into going along. Since then, we've also seen Kate going after the pig with him and Michael inviting him onto the raft. It seems significant that he is finally being accepted.

Good catch, mrsbuns, about Michael wanting to show Walt NY. He does want Walt to learn how to direct his thoughts.

carizara, I think Locke knew that Walt set the fire. He's watching the boy to see how aware he is of his ability. I still think it's possible the fire was a result of his experimentation.

anni, I can add links to the first post. I've been editing it all the time, putting in the page numbers and changing the link to the last page. It will get pretty long, though, with all those links.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 11:53 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

cac, the other problem, with posting a list of links to various pages in this thread pointing to the different titles is that, where would one post - at the end of THAT page, or the very end... where others would be more likely to see it? I would hope everyone would continue to post at the end, or their posts would get lost if they posted in the middle.

Since then, we've also seen Kate going after the pig with him and Michael inviting him onto the raft. It seems significant that he is finally being accepted.

cac, I didn't think Sawyer was "invited" onto the raft... he bought his way on by providing Michael with the supplies he needed to build the raft. Sawyer even said Michael charged a steep price.

It's funny, because at first I thought, "Wow - THAT is who Michael PICKED to be on his ship?" But then we learned the truth - Sawyer paid for his ticket... which made a lot more sense... very keeping with Sawyer's character.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 12:05 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I think Michael needed the cable, so he went to ask Sawyer if he had one.

Who do YOU think had the homecoming?

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 12:06 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I think it's much easier to keep discussing at the end. We'd never find them in the middle.

Do the page numbers I've listed make it easy enough to find the summaries, or do we still need links?

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 12:45 PM

reply

 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

Page numbers will work.

Who's finished their cycle on the island? ooohhh that makes the bridge in next weeks epi more meaningful. who's the bridge? who can't cross the bridge? who is struggling in crossing the bridge?

Back to previous epi's Hearts n' Minds: I was initially really phished off with this one. Felt I'd been taken for a royal ride when the dream thing came about. Still feel we can't be certain everything we are seeing happen on the island is real.

Not familiar with the speech that's associated, anyone got a link to that?

Who made connections of the heart in that one? Any meetings of the mind? Can't remember that far back. I guess Boone seemed to have a connection of heart/mind to let go of Shannon.

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:11 PM

reply

 943 Posts

 Registered: Nov 29, 2004 12:37 PM

Not familiar with the speech that's associated, anyone got a link to that?

What speech?

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:08 PM

reply

 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

i've been thinking about ladyA's clue to who had the homecoming and who didn't.

she actually responded to my post the other day about claire being the one who did NOT actually have the homecoming. so, who did?

i think it was charlie. i mean, of all the people who we've seen glimpses of so far, he has come the farthest. he kicked his drug habit and seems to have found peace in who he is on the island. the others all like and respect and include him (which he didn't have off of the island). claire has trusted him and he hasn't let her down (unlike his girlfriend) and i think he has proved his worthiness to himself by killing ethan. remember when his brother said that he'd be nothing without the band and that the band was liam, not charlie? somthing about the band being able to do just fine without him?

also, the girlfriend (what WAS her name????) told him he'd never be able to take care of anyone, because he couldn't take care of himself. well, he has proven to himself and to claire that he CAN take care of her. i think in that moment at the end of homecoming when it showed him looking far off...it was his validation and culmination of coming full circle, of finally doing what was right and responsible (or so he thought).

then in outlaws when he was burying ethan and hurley asked him why, he said that he killed him, he needed to bury him. kind of a closure for him. again, i think goes back to him not having been reliable and trustworthy to others and creating messes that he didn't clean up (literally...the puke). remember the girlfriend said that even though they got the flask back, it still smelled of his "sick". our actions linger for a long time...

anyway, what demons has he not yet confronted? i think that he is whole. i think he is home. i mean he never fit it and belonged like he does on the island.

  Sheila_B_4     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:17 PM

reply

 323 Posts

 Registered: Nov 05, 2004 07:25 AM

you might be right in that Charlie had a homecomming. But did anyone else?

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:23 PM

reply

 943 Posts

 Registered: Nov 29, 2004 12:37 PM

Vincent...

  lost_preacher     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:28 PM

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 67 Posts

 Registered: Feb 08, 2005 06:58 AM

The person who had the homecoming is the one who feels they belong to the island.

So far, there are only 2 that fit that description.

Homecoming - they feel they are finally at home.

Message was edited by: lost_preacher

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:36 PM

reply

 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

vincent...i agree

but who else are you thinking of, preacher? Locke and Walt? they both are the ones that have voiced it.

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:39 PM

reply

 943 Posts

 Registered: Nov 29, 2004 12:37 PM

Yes, as of last night. But as of Homecoming ep., who had become part of the island? Locke and Boone perhaps...

  annipadanni     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:40 PM

reply

 266 Posts

 Registered: Jan 17, 2005 08:05 AM

and charlie

  Sheila_B_4     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:42 PM

reply

 323 Posts

 Registered: Nov 05, 2004 07:25 AM

Well if you go by ashes to ashes dust to dust Scott became "part of the island" so if you count him the other would be boone.

locke had already "looked into the eye of the island"

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 01:55 PM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I eliminated Boone at first because he's not in Homecoming in any significant way, but I think that's actually it. Boone has left the beach/cave and the people he arrived with. Aside from being a sentry, he didn't take part in trapping Ethan. He was probably meditating on the hatch while that was going on. He's now more closely associated with the jungle. Of course, it happened under Locke's tutelage.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:18 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

I think Michael needed the cable, so he went to ask Sawyer if he had one.

cac, i think it was a lot more than just the cable, from the scene I'm recalling when Jack found out that Sawyer was one of the 4 who would be on the raft. I thought it was pretty clear that Michael didn't just ask for the cable and Sawyer gave it to him... Sawyer exchanged many of the supplies Michael needed to the build the raft in order to buy a place on the raft.

Of all the people Michael could have "invited", I don't think Sawyer would have been one of them. It was purely a business arrangement - exchange of goods for a ticket on the boat. Like I mentioned earlier, Sawyer even said that Michael charged a high price for the place on the boat.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:26 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I agree about Sawyer buying his place on the boat. I was trying to make a point at the time, but now I've moved on to Boone being the one who had a homecoming. The problem with Boone, though, is that I'm not sure he's as far along as he should be. I mean, I think he still has a lot to learn from Locke.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:32 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

sorry, cac... i had company for a few hours so fell a bit behind.

I re-edited this as I just realized i read your post the wrong way the first few times, cac! sorry about that too!

  needcaffeine     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:29 PM

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 1437 Posts

 Registered: Jan 04, 2005 11:26 AM

ME! cac! anni! and everyone!

You're doing such a great job. Sorry I haven't been back to post in awhile (but I have been lurking!)

I still think it's charlie that has the homecoming but still not 100% sure why. I'm thinking its maybe because he has kicked the drugs and now he is able to take care of someone else instead of having to be taken care of.

Loved last nights episode!!!

~need~ 

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:30 PM

reply

 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

MsB, someone posted a link, a kabillion threads ago, about a speech made during the Vietnam war that was entitled Hearts & Minds or referenced that phrase in it.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:47 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

The person who had the homecoming is the one who feels they belong to the island.

So far, there are only 2 that fit that description.

Homecoming - they feel they are finally at home.

lost_preacher, only Locke and Walt seem to fit that description to me, as of date.. as anni said...

i only knew for sure from last night's episode that Walt felt that the island is home, so perhaps Locke had a homecoming in the Homecoming episode?

Not quite sure if I can pin point which aspects of the Homecoming episode would solidify confirm to us his feeling of being "home" though... more than previous episodes - except that during Homecoming, Locke was very involved in leading the protection of the "camp"... protecting his territory... home.

I think it was his idea to set up the can noise thingie...

  furphy     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:10 PM

reply

 647 Posts

 Registered: Feb 07, 2005 07:09 AM

It was Ada of course. She made us laff when she said that she assumed everyone had immediatley recognized where the title had originated, most of us not having been born yet. But use her name and you should find it in a search.

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:44 PM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

I'm going through the initial list of clues for each episode so bear with me.

Jack - Must have used some special power to revive Charlie. (from our list for Special)

Harking back to my earlier post about Jack's giving up when he can't get quick results...this is the only time we haven't seen him give up. What happens? Charlie lives.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 02:46 PM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I posted somewhere here about Charlie having a homecoming because in the past he used everyone to get what he wanted. Liam for fame, priest for forgiveness, dealer for drugs, Lucy for money, her father for respectability. On the island, he just wants to be Claire's friend and to protect her. He wants to be needed instead of needing others. Someone else posted that he's come full circle -- in his first flashback, he was trying to save his brother from drugs.

When he killed Ethan it was in revenge but it was giving into a primal instinct. It's like the boys in Lord of the Flies who turned away from civilization toward savagery. I think this is what it means to belong to the island. In that scene, the five with guns plan to take Ethan alive and see what they can learn from him -- this is what the judicial systems of civilized nations do. Charlie's heart wins over his mind and he follows his instinct to kill.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 03:06 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

Good point, cac...

Charlie let go of civilized laws and rules, and gave way to the laws of the island... or the fact that they had not developed laws or rules for their life on the island.

However, if there are only two people at this point who truly feel the island is there home, i would still have to go with Locke and Walt... at least for now.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 03:07 PM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

hi need! glad to see you!

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 03:28 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Just rewatched the fire scene. Walt is the last one to arrive on the beach, running right behind Michael. Wherever he was, he was with his dad.

I interpret the look on his face as one of amazement and a little horror. I think he was playing with fire, as kids will do, and it got out of hand. The difference is that this kid was playing in his mind.

  furphy     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 10:12 PM

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 647 Posts

 Registered: Feb 07, 2005 07:09 AM

That's one of them yes. Charlie's homecoming. There were others as well.

  zegull     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 04:40 PM

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 488 Posts

 Registered: Oct 04, 2004 03:00 PM

cac120 Walt = Firestarter S.King? I'am not sure about that one, I feel he used something else. I loved the exchange with Walt & Locke. Maybe that is why Locke has taken Walt under his wing. Maybe that is why Locke told Micheal that Walt is "special" He needed Micheal to understand Walt better, because Locke's father didn't understand Locke.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 05:14 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Is Locke 'special' too? The same was as Walt & Michael, I mean. Do you remember the scene where he was out walking with Boone. There wasn't a cloud in the sky and he said it was going to rain. He looked up at the sky and it started raining. Boone said something like, "Did they teach you to predict the weather at the box company."

If so, he chose not to create a rainstorm when the raft was on fire.

Ze, how did the Firestarter start fires? I haven't read it.

Message was edited by: cac120

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 05:38 PM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Back on Page 9, OneisLost was the one who said Charlie coming full circle. She also said that Charlie referred to Ethan as an 'animal,' which I think supports the LOTF reference I mentioned in Charlie's homecoming post above. I've always thought of Ethan as one of the 'savages.'

Civilization vs. Savagery

The central concern of Lord of the Flies is the conflict between two competing impulses that exist within all human beings: the instinct to live by rules, act peacefully, follow moral commands, and value the good of the group against the instinct to gratify one's immediate desires, act violently to obtain supremacy over others, and enforce one's will. This conflict might be expressed in a number of ways: civilization vs. savagery, order vs. chaos, reason vs. impulse, law vs. anarchy, or the broader heading of good vs. evil. Throughout the novel, Golding associates the instinct of civilization with good and the instinct of savagery with evil.

The conflict between the two instincts is the driving force of the novel, explored through the dissolution of the young English boys' civilized, moral, disciplined behavior as they accustom themselves to a wild, brutal, barbaric life in the jungle. Lord of the Flies is an allegorical novel, which means that Golding conveys many of his main ideas and themes through symbolic characters and objects. He represents the conflict between civilization and savagery in the conflict between the novel's two main characters: Ralph, the protagonist, who represents order and leadership; and Jack, the antagonist, who represents savagery and the desire for power.

As the novel progresses, Golding shows how different people feel the influences of the instincts of civilization and savagery to different degrees. Piggy, for instance, has no savage feelings, while Roger seems barely capable of comprehending the rules of civilization. Generally, however, Golding implies that the instinct of savagery is far more primal and fundamental to the human psyche than the instinct of civilization. Golding sees moral behavior, in many cases, as something that civilization forces upon the individual rather than a natural expression of human individuality. When left to their own devices, Golding implies, people naturally revert to cruelty, savagery, and barbarism. This idea of innate human evil is central to Lord of the Flies, and finds expression in several important symbols, most notably the beast and the sow's head on the stake. Among all the characters, only Simon seems to possess anything like a natural, innate goodness.

http://cgi.sparknotes.com/hlite.mpl?words=lord,flies&pd=0&page=themes.html&guide=%2flit%2fflies

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:14 PM

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 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

If we go with the LOTF philosophy doesn't that toss the Locke philosophy of tabula rasa out the window? We all have instincts that are base, for survival. The only difference between human and animal is malice. Is malice inherent in humans or introduced/learned?

Did Charlie act out of instinct (island) or malice (civilization)?

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 07:54 PM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

If we go with the LOTF philosophy doesn't that toss the Locke philosophy of tabula rasa out the window?

As far as the Lost goes, I think both could fit... not saying 100% of both, but I think there's room for both. I think in terms of the show, tabula rasa - blank slate - speaks more to having a blank slate - new life - on the island. All other external factors that impacted their lives in one way or another - family, friends, government, wars, poverty, wealth, enemies... so much more - are no longer factors.

That's not to say that new external factors won't develop in their lives on the island - as has already begun - but when they landed on the island, as was so emphasized on last night's show, they get a new life on the island... to start over... a blank slate.

At the same time, we all have basic survival needs... that we seek to fill instinctively. Think of Maslow's Heirarchy... our most basic human needs... food, water, oxygen... then safety... have to be met before we can move up the heirarchy to fullfill our other needs. Right now most of the survivors are fighting instictively for those basic needs - especially safety.

Message was edited by: MEandthesea

  OneisLost     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 08:26 PM

reply

 450 Posts

 Registered: Nov 21, 2004 08:52 AM

True, True ME. Everyone is starting over so they both fit.

Another question...did Locke actually see the "monster"? Was that stated for sure by the writers? Because I was thinking that maybe there are two entities on the island, back to the black/white thing, and he saw the white/benevolent one. When he's used the chips and other things to signify black/white, has he only emphasised the white?

My blasted internet connection keeps going out. Darned S-N-O-W! I'll be back in the a.m. ;0)

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:12 PM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Here's what one of the writers said about the monster:

11/09 - ... [Lost writer Paul] ... Dini says Locke having the same name as the philosopher is not a coincidence. "... the monster is sort of a reflection of yourself. The pilot saw it in horror and he was killed because he feared the monster. Locke saw the monster with true awe, therefore, he was able to survive his encounter," Dini said. Though we may never see the entire monster, Dini says it may be "a Loch Ness Monster kind of thing." ... Source: Ain't It Cool News

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 24, 2005 09:39 PM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

I was talking to a friend tonight and she reminded me about the structure of folktales, which might help explain why they are Lost.

In both linear and circular journeys, the central character ... is displaced from the home environment, either voluntarily or involuntarily. The chief reasons for this displacement are often poverty or parental rejection or both. In either case ... the displacement may be seen as the first step toward achieving maturity. In the linear journey, the hero overcomes inner doubts, natural objects, and human and supernatural adversaries to reach a new, happier, and more fulfilling home. In the circular journey, although similar obstacles are overcome, the point of departure is also the destination. However, because of their experiences, the central figures return home able to assume more self-fulfilling roles within the family structure. Circular journeys resemble the initiation rites preacticed in many "primative" societies. Alone, the individual must develop the skills and inner resources necessary for him to return a functioning member of society.

In many cases, the object of the linear journey is simply survival. The Three Billy-Goats Gruff must successfully cross a bridge to reach their food supply ... Success is coupled with marriage to royalty in ... Cinderella. ... Whatever the object, each story is structured around a journey from one setting to another.

Many of the characters who undertake circular journeys are children. ... Hansel and Gretel are placed in alien and generally threatening situations. In these situations they are given the opportunity to learn. ... Several circular journeys involve tricksters who willingly leave home on quests and return successful and often wealthy. ... Husbands and wives are also involved in circular journeys ... [and] end their journeys with domestic peace and tranquility.

Several of the linear and circular journeys conclude ironically. Often, protagonists do not reach their destinations. When they do, the results are not those expected. Two of the three little pigs build their houses but do not survive in them ... In these stories, the ironic results are generally the consequences of character failings and weaknesses.

The Family of Stories by Moss & Stott.

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 07:15 AM

  |     reply

 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

Morning all,

Just letting you know I won't be around today. Happy chatting!

  cac120     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 07:20 AM

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 1536 Posts

 Registered: Sep 03, 2004 06:39 PM

furphy

It was Ada of course. She made us laff when she said that she assumed everyone had immediatley recognized where the title had originated, most of us not having been born yet. But use her name and you should find it in a search.

To which title do you refer? I think your message might have been posted out of order.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 07:28 AM

reply

 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

cac, I think that's in reference to the report Hearts and Minds that someone asked about recently on this thread. Someone mentioned "the report", and someone asked "what report". Anyway, I remember the thread and post which Ada mentioned "Hearts and Minds" and then explained about the report... something that came out during the Vietnam war, or a report about the war (I forget already).

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 07:33 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

cac, great post about the folktales!

sorry to see you won't be on today - but thanks for letting us know! come back when you can. i hope we can all keep this thread going - even if we have to take breaks at times.... i really think it's a good one - and we've getting such lovely feedback from those who have been popping in to participate.

  MEandthesea     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections?

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 07:56 AM

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 1393 Posts

 Registered: Jan 21, 2005 10:51 AM

by the way, One... I don't really feel the writers are trying for a strong LOTF connection. I mean, I think LOTF and Lost may have SOME parallels because LOTF speaks to universal elements of human nature - especially the primal, survival instincts that we posess as human animals.

But these do not just exist in LOTF... they've been around as long as man has, and they exist even in civilized countries.

However, when people, especially strangers, are forced into a small, new environment, cut off from civilization, where survival and basic human needs are at stake, and no rules or laws or means of governing has been established, people tend to forgo all civilized behavior and resort to those basic survival skills - and many aren't pretty.

  mrsbuns     Re: Are Episode Titles Clues to Past Connections? fficeffice" / onload='javascript:showImageWidth(this,600,600)' class='AutoImageWidthTopic' style='cursor:poionter'>

    Posted: Feb 25, 2005 08:32 AM